Mark- They Didn't Even Use the Word - Season 2, Episode 9

In this episode of Amplified Voices, Amber and Jason speak with Mark who authentically shares the shock, pain and sense of brokenness that he and his close relatives felt when they discovered sexual harm had occurred within their family. This incident abruptly plunged his elderly father into the criminal legal system, ultimately revealing that he had dementia. Mark describes how he and his father encountered severe injustice on one hand and acts of kindness on the other, as they were forced to navigate a system that is ill-prepared to accommodate individuals with Alzheimer's and Dementia.

Transcript

AV PODCAST TRANSCRIPT, Mark, Season 2, Episode 9, Sept 13, 2021

Announcer: [00:00:00] Support for Amplified Voices comes from the Restorative Action Foundation. Learn more at restorativeactionalliance. org.

Announcer: Everyone has a voice. A story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories? To have conversations with real people in real communities. A way to help them step into the power of their lived experience Welcome to amplified voices a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system Together we can create positive change for everyone.

Jason: Hello and welcome to another episode of amplified voices I'm your host jason here with my co host amber. Hello amber 

Amber: Hi Jason, happy to be here. 

Jason: Awesome. And today we have a guest, Mark Thompson. [00:01:00] Hello, Mark. Hello. Can you tell us a little bit about your life before your involvement with the criminal legal system and then what happened that brought you into it?

Mark: Well, I'm a retired civil engineer. I was an engineer for a while until I became disabled with a neurological condition from some compressed nerves in my neck. What was your life like when you were working? I mean, were your parents close by? Yes. I lived in the same city as my parents and my sister's family too.

Mark: We all lived in the same city. 

Jason: Was it a close family growing up? I think so. Yeah. So everything's just kind of like a normal American life at this point. Right. Yeah. So you got a call from a family member and the family member told you that your father had been kissing in an inappropriate manner. A young family member.

Mark: Yes, [00:02:00] someone less than 10 years old. So my reaction was, well, what can I do to help? And my family members said, well, go help mom. So I went over there and found both my dad and my mom in the room. And I explained why I was there and what was going on. And I have to credit my mother as she was restoring my dad to a place of grace.

Mark: Dad was expressing some shame and I was expressing that there was something strange going on. This is a deep brain issue is what I said, and I didn't know what we were dealing with. 

Jason: Up until this point, there's no indication that your father had ever done anything inappropriate. 

Mark: Oh, no, no indication. My sister and I had conversations about this for, you know, a couple months afterwards.

Mark: I said, have we ever seen any indication of this? I said, no. And she confirmed that I have older nieces and nephews and he had never acted inappropriately with them. 

Amber: So just for clarification sake, at this time, how old are [00:03:00] your parents? 

Mark: At the time he was 77. 

Amber: And so as your family's trying to kind of wade through this, you've gone over, you're talking to both mom and dad, trying to figure out what has occurred and what to do next.

Mark: Yes. 

Amber: Then what happens? 

Mark: Well, my sister had already called the police. That was one of her first reactions. She's a, a mandatory reporter as a teacher. And, uh, within minutes of my arriving, the police also arrived and separated us all and got, uh, Testimony. And that was enough for them to request that he come in for questioning, which he did, I did actually follow dad to the police station, but I wasn't doing any good to anybody there just sitting in the hallway.

Mark: So I came back to mom and tried to console her within an hour. The police detective came back and said that dad was going to [00:04:00] be. Arrested and taken to jail. 

Amber: I cannot even imagine the devastation at this point that you're going through. How has anybody prepared for this? 

Mark: I was just going through what should we be doing next?

Mark: And at this point I was searching the internet for a lawyer, which I was proud to be able to figure that out. Mom was not doing very well and in this process. I learned later that she was suffering from cognitive impairment. She admits that now too. So we found a lawyer and then the goal was to get bail for dad.

Mark: That didn't work out so well for three days. Meantime, he was missing his medications. He had a donor kidney, so he needed to have some immunocompromising anti rejection drugs, which the jail I found out was not giving to them. Police detective promised to do that. Didn't happen. [00:05:00] The rules in jail are very strict and in order to get medication in there, it has to come from their doctors.

Mark: So he went from Saturday till Tuesday without his medications. He was concerned about that. I was concerned about that. By the time we got bail to him and got him out, that turned out to be not a medical issue. It was okay for those days. However, the releasing judge did not allow dad to come back to his own home because the primary witness was my mother.

Mark: So he was not able to sleep in his own bed. Uh, luckily he has an RV. So it was up to me to help him find a place to park that RV. And it turned out to be a many month long ordeal. He was essentially homeless, couldn't park the RV in a normal RV park because they do background checks and surprisingly an arrest.

Mark: Shows up in a background check. I thought you had to be convicted in order to show up at a landlord background check, [00:06:00] but no, the rest was for child molestation and that showed up in background checks, so we were scrambling to find places to park his RV. Thankfully, three people at church opened up bedrooms for him and one opened up a driveway to park the RV.

Mark: Getting him clothing was a difficult thing. He didn't have a washer and dryer. I said, Dad, you could just go to a laundromat. He wasn't quite clear how to make that happen for some reason. I didn't understand why. 

Jason: Was he denying what happened or was he expressing shame or what was going on? With your interactions with him.

Mark: Oh, I was in the observation mode for many months. Just looking at him, listening, not prompting. I didn't think it was my job to accuse or prompt or interrogate. I was definitely examining him and he was just kind of not very responsive, even more than [00:07:00] usual. My dad has always been kind of a laconic, not a talkative guy.

Mark: But even more so, when pressed, he would say, I'm very ashamed of what happened. He said that from day one. I watched him for any kind of difference in his behavior or demeanor, and he just seemed to be trudging along, not really losing any character trait that I had seen before. He seemed to be just my dad, the same quiet, gentle man that I've always known.

Mark: He seemed to 

Amber: And so as you go through this process, he's out on bail and I am glad that you talked a little bit about the difficulty in finding a place for him to stay because people who have been arrested or convicted of particularly crimes of a sexual nature. This is a huge problem in terms of.

Amber: people winding up [00:08:00] homeless, not being able to live with their families. And it's very, very difficult for people to look past even an arrest. So I really thank you for sharing that with our audience. 

Mark: Right. 

Amber: So as you're going through the process, you were able to secure a lawyer at that point. Yeah. 

Mark: Yes. 

Amber: And what were the lawyers telling you the next steps would look like?

Mark: I was present for some of that discussion, more so as time went on. Early on, what were they saying? I began to notice That my dad was not quite mentally the same. I'd mentioned the laundry, uh, Matt dealing with laundry issues. There were things about his problem solving abilities that were concerning to me.

Mark: And I was concerned that he was depressed. So I wanted him to have medical attention. And the lawyer, I begged him to say, we need some medical [00:09:00] attention and the lawyer pressed back on me and he said, well, I need to balance what's best for your dad, both medically and legally. And right now, legally, the best thing for him is to wait until he can see a court approved psychologist, what they call a psychosexual evaluation.

Amber: Right. 

Mark: And that was going to happen in August to December. During that time, I was just so scared for my dad's health because he wasn't acting right. Now that I was really spending so much time with him, I was the only one who could connect with him and help him with issues. Just finding a place to live was an issue.

Mark: And my dad and I worked closely on figuring that out. And so I was around him much more. Than before and the lawyer would not allow me to get him what I thought was appropriate medical care He was willing to but he said this is not good for his case 

Jason: Yeah, it's tough because [00:10:00] prior to that the person who had the most interaction is their mother who's also The same age range also suffering some mental decline from the normal aging process So i've learned They're kind of a check on each other and they're both declining and missing some things at the same time because it's very tough My parents are up there at age, and even though I'm a mile away and see them regularly, there's definitely a decline, you know, for you to be going through that and then have this extra layer of the implications of what he's done, that's just a whole lot to be trying to deal with.

Jason: One thing that's interesting that you brought up is this idea of not being able to get the care he needs. Because he's now in this one size fits all system where we have to do the psychosexual evaluation. It's for the masses. It's like somebody commits something, we check this box, check this box, this is what we're going to do.

Jason: Whereas your father, like everybody else, needed to be treated like an individual and see what was really going on. [00:11:00] 

Mark: Yeah. And I didn't know what was going on with him when the psychosexual evaluation did finally happen. He called me up and I'm so thankful he did. He gave me 60 minutes of his time for free to explain to me what he thought was going on with my dad.

Mark: So. This was when he said, look, your dad is not cognitively the same as normal. He's got some kind of impairment. You have to have 600 clinical hours before you're allowed to make this diagnosis. I'm confident in diagnosing him with cognitive impairment. That was the word he used, cognitive impairment.

Mark: Word dementia wasn't used. Word Alzheimer's wasn't used, but those words came in later. By other providers, this is part of the human condition. He said, I got a lot of chance to ask questions and I'm so thankful that I did, and he listened and he responded. 

Jason: That changed a lot for you in that time. Yes, it did.

Jason: You were looking for answers and you got some. [00:12:00] That was a turning 

Mark: point for me. 

Amber: And prior to that, did you have any experience with cognitive decline, Alzheimer's. Dementia. What was your knowledge of those types of things? 

Mark: Nothing, nothing at all. Prior to that, mom and I had been talking, what I call the witch hunt period, and we were exploring very extreme ideas, possibilities, none of which amounted, in my mind, to sexual deviancy of any kind.

Mark: When he was arrested, was it in the media? Did they go after him? No, but I live in a small town, so almost everyone I knew had heard about it. So the information was pretty well broadcast. How did that impact your relationship with other people 

Jason: in the community? 

Mark: Well, that's an interesting question. I was a volunteer at the youth center with my math skills.

Mark: I was helping kids with homework. That was an uncomfortable [00:13:00] situation. People I worked with there during this time, or maybe a later time, we're not interested in engaging on the subject. Even when I provided them with the information that dad was cognitively impaired, that didn't seem to matter. There are uncomfortable situations when you're dealing with teenagers in a facility, and when I was dealing with one of those situations, the director decided that the policy had somehow changed from previously, so I was asked to not volunteer anymore.

Mark: That was a part of my life that I missed. I really enjoyed working with kids. 

Jason: So you are the son of somebody who did something inappropriate and that's a whole separate issue. You're volunteering and giving your time to your community. You're being told your services as a volunteer. Are no longer welcome here by association.

Mark: [00:14:00] Yeah. Volunteering at the youth center was no longer welcomed from me. And there was really no discussion about why, other than that I had questioned some kids behavior and this was not unusual and this would have been discussed before suddenly the policy switched. 

Amber: Right. And so when you get the call and you speak with this person who's done the evaluation on dad, which again, as you mentioned, was kind of a court approved thing, what were your next steps after you've realized that maybe there is something that needs further exploration that's going on with dad?

Mark: Well, I did nothing. I let the lawyer handle this situation, and he asked for that. He wanted this to be handled in a way that he was going to direct. And so I put my faith in that, assuming that all would be [00:15:00] somehow addressed. And was it? It was not addressed. I did not hear the word dementia used by the judge ever, and the lawyer only used the word once at the sentencing hearing, which was after the judge had already said guilty.

Mark: This was a year and a half or two years later. During this time, I attended a few meetings with the lawyer and his boss, who was interested. And they said that it was not helpful to the case to discuss dementia. They said that it might actually hurt the case because a judge could decide that this would make my dad less able to follow court instructions.

Mark: I didn't know what court instructions meant. I'm guessing that it meant the sentencing instructions about how to stay 2, 000 feet away from the victim, stay 2, 000 feet away from certain houses and parks and schools. I'm guessing that's what that meant. [00:16:00] For whatever reason, the lawyer did not want dad's dementia to be Introduced at least an open court.

Amber: Anybody who's ever been involved with the criminal legal system and the way that it broad brushes things, understands that hindsight is always 20, 20. Like when you're going through a situation like that, this is your first time dealing with these things. 

Mark: Oh, sure. 

Amber: So it's like, you know, of course, you're going to take the advice of a legal professional that you've hired to walk you through this.

Amber: Did that particular lawyer ever indicate that he had knowledge or experience with cases dealing with people who either had cognitive impairment, disabilities, or Alzheimer's and dementia? 

Mark: No, he did not. So what happens at sentencing? So the prosecutor and the defense attorney had had some kind of a plea agreement, and I was told the hope [00:17:00] was that there would be zero jail time.

Mark: And the lawyer was very excited that that would be an option, but there was a possibility that the judge could sentence 12 months. So during sentencing, he asked that we bring in 10 or 12 character witnesses that would speak on dad's behalf. And that happened and we all showed up at this hearing in which the first time I heard the word dimension was at this hearing and the judge decided no, this is going to be what he calls a alternative sentence or in Washington State, they call it Sosa, which means there will be treatment.

Mark: But first, there was going to be an incarceration, he said. The lawyer argued that it could be zero, and the judge looked at the law and just read it. It said up to 12 months, and that's what he decided. It would be up to 12 months, followed by treatment. There's some confusion on that issue, whether it would be two or three years.

Mark: Dad's treatment provider decided that it would be only two years. [00:18:00] The court wanted three years of supervision. So there's some gray areas here about treatment or not. 

Amber: So I just had a quick question during this time, who was directing or interacting most frequently was dad most interacting or. Was there another family member that was serving as kind of a power of attorney or anything like that?

Mark: I do have power of attorney now, which happened after dad was incarcerated. We got lawyers into the jail to make sure that that would happen because I was afraid that he would come out of the jail and not be able to sign the papers, but at this time, the lawyer was inviting me in to these meetings. And I think it was because of dad's dementia.

Mark: He wanted me there. Um, and so did dad. Dad and I were joined at the hip a lot. We worked out problems a lot together and that was especially helpful. I think the lawyer recognized that. I recognized that. Dad recognized that I was [00:19:00] helpful to him. I mentioned laundromats earlier, but dad was forgetting things.

Mark: And at one point he was asking questions about the court and what they said. And he can remember if you repeat them over and over again, but he doesn't get it. The first time. So he'd often walk out of court and say, I don't know just what happened. Can you explain it to me, please? And the lawyer would be first to do that.

Mark: And then I would listen to the lawyer and then we drive away and dad would ask again. So I would explain it again. And that was important. He needed that. What was his profession? Dad was a chemistry and physics teacher in high school. He was my chemistry and physics teacher. 

Amber: Wow. 

Jason: You know, you're dealing with so many losses.

Jason: Yes. He's here and you're dealing with the loss of the father. You remember who was this teacher and this mentor and somebody who you just idolized growing up. I mean, you kind of followed in his footsteps [00:20:00] with engineering. 

Mark: Yes. It's painful to watch another human being fall apart from the inside. I mean, his brain is, I heard the word unraveling from some support group somewhere.

Mark: I think that's a good word to describe dementia and different people unravel different ways. Dad is really good at looking at paperwork and bills. It's his hobby to look at and relook at what came in the mail. And I think that's why it took so long for us to see his dementia is because he's so good at.

Mark: Organizing and examining the mail and doing approximately the right thing. Yeah. Cause when you 

Jason: come from such a high point, the decline, I think it might be harder to see if somebody is still highly functioning for a while as they are declining, it's like, how do you measure that? 

Amber: Right. And so when you were going through this process, did anybody ever talk to you about the concepts of capacity and [00:21:00] competency?

Amber: These are legal terms. When you talk about somebody's ability to make their own decisions, are those terms familiar to you or were they. 

Mark: Not at the time and I'm still trying to juggle and compare these words I've heard, I'm not a lawyer and I know there are different ways of describing cognitive impairment.

Mark: The first thing that was done by the lawyers. That I did hear about was a competency evaluation done by state hospital evaluators. These are people who look for a person's ability to understand the lawyer's instructions in order to help their case, to participate in the case with the lawyer, to work as a team with the lawyer, I think that's the word competency.

Mark: I've since learned that this part of cognitive impairment is not. a defense. Competency is just merely a way of delaying a trial so that the defendant [00:22:00] can be brought up to speed, treated by a doctor, or however long it takes. The goal of the court is to bring the defendant back into competency so that they can participate and assist their lawyer.

Mark: At no point does it offer a defense for their actions. 

Amber: Right. And I am also not a lawyer, but I do work with people with Alzheimer's and dementia in my day job. So we have a lot of situations where people's capacity to make their own decisions is evaluated by a court for conservatorship and different things like that.

Amber: So capacity really has to do with being able to function in terms of making decisions for yourself. Competency has to do with your ability to understand from a legal standpoint, the consequences of your actions. And so when you talk about competency or whether somebody is competent to stand trial or understand charges against them, that's where [00:23:00] competency comes in.

Amber: So as a lay person, sometimes those things get very confusing. So what we find is when families are trying to navigate the legal system, it's very, very complicated and it's very difficult to know what to do. And if you look at the literature, when you talk about people with. Alzheimer's dementia in the legal system.

Amber: It's widely misunderstood by a lot of people, including legal actors, actors in the system. And I think that as your story is unfolding, as we're talking here, that's becoming pretty clear. Am I characterizing that correctly at all? 

Mark: I think so. I mean, I'm still trying to understand, you described me pretty well when you said that it's difficult.

Mark: And yes, it is difficult. And not just by me, but people around me, my pastor, we all wanted to know why wasn't dementia a consideration? I mean, he's going to be just found [00:24:00] not guilty because of dementia, right? Turns out that's not the case. So he ended up 

Jason: going to prison? To jail. Yes. Okay. So how long was he in jail?

Jason: 12 months. He was in for the full 12 months. All right. So take us a little bit through that experience for you and what you know of that experience for him. 

Mark: Okay. We lost contact with him for a while, especially early on, because he didn't know how to navigate getting pencils and paper, his letters back to us were about.

Mark: Could you please send me some paper? An issue was they wouldn't allow us to send blank paper to him. He was supposed to use the commissary in the jail to get these items. And he didn't know how to make that happen for a long time. Eventually got some help from other inmates. I'm assuming operating the phone was also difficult because he had a special code that he needed to key in and he [00:25:00] just could not do that.

Mark: And so. Other inmates typed it in for him, which was a huge breach of protocol. These corrections officers want to monitor phone calls so that criminal activity doesn't occur and they can trace that back to the person in the conversation. So, unique identifiers are not supposed to be shared, but I observed this and dad confirmed it that he was getting help with people to help him navigate this computer phone system.

Amber: Just so that I understand what you're saying. You're saying that other inmates recognized that he needed assistance. Is that what you're saying? 

Mark: Yes. 

Amber: And at any point, are you aware that there were services available to him or other mechanisms to assist him while he was there? 

Mark: No. I was told that if dad had to initiate a phone call.

Mark: But if he couldn't do that, [00:26:00] that I could contact the mental health department. The mental health department can initiate a phone call. 

Amber: How do they know to do that? Does your father have to initiate that with them? 

Mark: Dad didn't manage to make contact after a while, and so we got to be able to do visitations.

Mark: And the corrections officer at that point gave me the phone number of this mental health department, which turned out to be really important at one point because dad had an appointment with a neurologist three or four months into his sentence. I had made this appointment ahead of time and their medical department had not changed that.

Mark: They'd said, Oh yeah, this is good. Let's get this neurologist. Yeah. Dad was also seeing a nephrologist for his kidney and a skin doctor for his skin cancer, but the neurologist was a hard appointment to change. So that appointment was still on my calendar. And they called us and said, look, can you, he come a little bit.

Mark: Later, because they're having some kind of scheduling issue. [00:27:00] So I called the jail and spoke to someone in their medical clinic and the person there said, how do you know that the prisoner is being transferred to a doctor? You're not supposed to have that information. I said, well, this is what happened.

Mark: The phone call happened. And this person said that we're going to have to cancel this prisoner appointment because you now have awareness of the transportation that's going to occur. And that is not proper. Okay. He didn't say this, but I'm guessing that they were concerned that I was going to lay an ambush, you know, and take down the vehicle on the way to his neurologist's appointment.

Mark: So that appointment got canceled. I called the mental health department and said, look, can you fix this situation? Nobody has done anything wrong here. And they said, well, I'll have to talk to the lieutenants. But I probably can't change what's happened and that's indeed what happened. Dad didn't get a neurologist appointment within three or four days.

Mark: I got a call from the lieutenant's department saying we're going to fix this problem for you. We're going [00:28:00] to pass a judge's approved thing where you can take your dad and we will release your dad to your custody so that you can take him to the doctor. It allowed me to do something that had not been done.

Mark: They said in the a hundred years of history of their jail, which is to release the prisoner to a family member. 

Jason: So you would go there, get him, bring him to an appointment and then bring him back. Correct. 

Mark: And this was their desire. I didn't ask for this. They said they wanted him to have a family member there to communicate with the doctor and remember.

Mark: Doctor's instructions, and just to have that witness there of a family member, they thought that was helpful from a health standpoint, and they were right. 

Jason: Let's just take a moment here, and I just want to acknowledge a couple of dynamics that have happened during this talk so far. I mean, when you first started telling the story about what was going on, I could see Amber was ready to tear up, and I was feeling the pain that you've been through, and your whole family's been through, [00:29:00] and now you're talking about this where they're basically acknowledging that they don't even know what to do with or how to care for him and that the best care is to get you involved somehow because it kind of absolves them.

Jason: That's well said. It's obviously not the best place for him. It doesn't help society. It doesn't help the victim in this case in any way to have him locked up like this when he doesn't even know how to go to commissary to get his basic needs met. Luckily, he had some people around that took pity on him and helped him.

Mark: Shout out to Lieutenant Davis right now. She thought that it was important to accommodate this need and she was right. 

Amber: So it really is a serious situation of a mismatch of response to something that has happened. When you think about the system itself, you know, a lot of times people blame particular people, [00:30:00] people blame things that have happened and so on and so forth.

Amber: There were caring people that tried to help in this situation with the recognition that this was not the response that was going to. Repair the harm that had been done, protect society. So somebody who is unable to access commissary, somebody who's unable to understand what the doctor is saying to them, somebody who's unable to even access how to get a piece of paper to write a letter to their family is not such a danger to society that they should be locked in a cage.

Amber: People talk about care, not cages. And I think this really, really applies in this situation. And from my perspective, having a family member who is affected by Alzheimer's and working every single day with people from all walks of life who do have Alzheimer's and dementia, it's important for people to know that this is just not a linear thing.

Amber: So it's not [00:31:00] like, okay, at this point, you have Alzheimer's or dementia, and this thing happens to you. There are good days. There are bad days. There are different presentations. Everybody's journey is different. And it just blows my mind. The criminal legal system and its effect on somebody with Alzheimer's and dementia sounds so terrifying to me.

Amber: And I'm so appreciative for you sharing your story. So when you took him to the appointment and brought him back, did he have an understanding that Okay. Now I'm going with my son and he's going to have to bring me back and I'm back in the same situation. 

Mark: Oh, yeah. 

Amber: And what did that feel like during that trip?

Mark: At first he would come out of the sliding door, just more emotional, completely overwrought with. Just crying, which was unusual for my dad. My dad doesn't cry much. [00:32:00] What I felt was pride at that point to be able to be of service. This was not just my dad at this point. This was a human being who needed some consoling going forward.

Mark: Even today, he's no longer the bread winning safety net supporter, the explainer of the world to me that he used to be, he's now more human with a failing body. 

Jason: He spent a year and then he comes out. Do you have to go to a group treatment program? Yes, he 

Mark: did. And he's completed that two years of it. And he's still under one more year of supervision, which they're uncomfortable with because they want them to be under treatment.

Mark: But the treatment provider said, no, he's finished. 

Jason: I went through a group treatment program and there was a guy that had Alzheimer's and he couldn't remember why he was there. He couldn't grasp what was going on. He's like, I don't remember anybody's names in this group week to week. So they said, you know what, we can't do [00:33:00] anything.

Jason: Because this guy isn't able to hold on to this information and they release them for medical reasons 

Mark: Yeah in the group situation dad was not helpful to anybody including himself He was not interacting as you say, he probably didn't remember people's names But his provider said you don't belong in a group situation.

Mark: I'm going to treat you individually That's what they did from then on was individual counseling for two years 

Amber: And so he was able to complete that. So at the same time that he's experiencing the treatment, he's also having to comply with supervision conditions. 

Mark: And 

Amber: how did that affect your life, his life?

Mark: Once a month, we'd go down and visit with the corrections officer and she did not ask for much, just explain what was going on and just keep going. And dad struggles with understanding things. It's helpful to have [00:34:00] somebody other than me. In dad's eyes, I'm still that 10 year old boy that he raised. I'm not the 57 year old man that I really am.

Amber: Right. 

Jason: If you could go back and you were all powerful and could design a system that met the needs of everybody, especially when we talk about the legal system, what would you recommend? If you were talking with somebody writing policy, what could be done in a case like this to have a much more humane outcome?

Mark: Oh, I've written to my legislators and I'm trusting that they're reading it and I've done a lot of thinking about this after a number of years and I found a section of the law that would give prosecutors permission to introduce the idea of dementia as something that might mitigate. Prosecutors have discretion to withhold prosecution in a number of situations.

Mark: If the law just mentioned the word cognitive impairment somewhere in it, it would open [00:35:00] up so many doors for them to just give them permission to speak the words. Words are the tools of civilization and these lawyers were avoiding using a very important word, dementia, in this court proceeding and they need to be given 

Jason: permission to use that word.

Jason: Yeah, we've got multiple things going on at the same time. We had people living longer and at the same time we've had basically moral panic reaction to any type of a sex offense saying if someone has done this they're now all of a sudden into a category of irredeemable worst of the worst. predators that need to be isolated from the rest of society.

Jason: So you've got those things going on that seem to be coming together that you have this possibility of somebody who is in cognitive decline, who then commits any number of offenses, but it could be sexual in nature. How do you deal with that? What do we do as a society and how do we make sure that we're protecting our young people and our elderly and everybody in between?

Jason: Yes, [00:36:00] there's 

Mark: a number of projects in the works right now to help with young people. There's legislation in Washington State right now to create a different category for sex offenses done by 14 year olds, which is actually the largest age group of people who are performing sex offenses statistically.

Mark: Just now, finally, legislation to say, Okay, this is child molestation as a minor. It's a new offense, which allows the courts then to respond differently. I don't know the details of how, but at least they're using the word and a different category. And it would seem rational to me to extend that to cognitive impairment as well, because, you know, the brain develops as a young person differently.

Mark: Obviously they have different brains than adults do, and obviously people with cognitive impairment have different brains as well. But the idea of even considering the brain, in Latin that's called mens rea, the idea [00:37:00] that you can consider what's going on in somebody's head as they're committing a crime.

Mark: We do this for some kinds of crimes, but there are certain crimes that are called strict liability laws. That this doesn't happen. The judge is not allowed to consider the mindset of someone. Of course they do it with murder, for example, is it aggravated murder? Is it considered a forethought, but sex offenses?

Mark: No, there's a legislator in New Zealand right now. Who's high on my list of people who can admit. That laws have gone way overboard and I'm not going to be able to pronounce her name. I'm so sorry. She stood up in court. She gave a really good speech in her legislature saying that look, we are diminishing the public trust in our parliament.

Mark: By, by going overboard and not considering the recidivism rates and being disconnected from data and research [00:38:00] and actual science behind treatment of people who are in trouble with the law. Instead, legislators have acted emotionally. This person is saying all the right things. And I haven't heard anybody in the United States who was a legislator who has that courage to stand up and speak the truth the way she did.

Amber: I know that the Alzheimer's Association has some efforts in Florida that are actually scanning dockets and arrests and looking at people's ages and trying to determine if they are. Cognitive decline is a factor. So there are some efforts I would submit to you that probably around the country, this is an issue that needs a lot more attention.

Amber: Alzheimer's and dementia does constitute a disability. So when you talk about disability rights and criminal justice for individuals with disabilities, it's worth connecting with different organizations that work in that area. So if you [00:39:00] had advice for someone who is trying to navigate a similar situation or the criminal legal system with someone who has either been diagnosed or they suspect has cognitive decline, if you could just give somebody one piece of advice, what would it be?

Mark: Well, I don't know that I could have gotten a better outcome for my dad by doing anything differently. The lawyers that he had did everything that the law required. If you get a lawyer who's adept at sexual offenses, as we did, That's fine, but if you're going to be uncomfortable with having that lawyer not speak the word dementia, then I would suggest, and I don't think this will hurt your loved one's outcome, you might consider finding an attorney who's involved with human rights or criminal justice reform, emphasis on the word reform, and they might do the case a little differently.

Mark: I think it might do a lot of [00:40:00] good. To bring one of these cases up from a human rights perspective and really challenge the law because I think there's something to be said and the public agrees everyone I know thinks there's a real disconnect between human rights and disability rights to have those words spoken in court.

Amber: Sure. 

Mark: I think a human rights lawyer or a criminal justice reform lawyer could do an adequate job of not only caring for your loved one, but also advocating and changing case law on this subject. So, are you acting as a full time caregiver now for your parents? I am. I'm actually living with them now and performing services that I'm so proud to be doing.

Mark: I have great purpose. I wake up every morning feeling like I'm going to do something good today. That 

Amber: is very inspiring and especially for listeners who may be experiencing something similar. We've got millions of people in this country [00:41:00] who are serving as unpaid caregivers for people with Alzheimer's, dementia, cognitive decline.

Amber: And to have the different layers that you have on top of that and feel like when you wake up in the morning that you're doing something good today, it is amazing. And I certainly appreciate your vulnerability in telling this difficult story. It really means a lot to be able to amplify something that's really not talked about.

Amber: You really don't hear all that much about this issue when we talk about criminal justice reform and even in disability circles, sometimes this issue is just seen as like, you know, it's old age. This is what happens to you. 

Jason: Mark, can you tell us a story before we close out about your father from when you were a kid?

Jason: The Bible said who 

Mark: would give their child a stone. My dad gave me his sleeping bag once. We were sleeping in a canvas tent and forgotten to [00:42:00] trench around the outside of the tent. So we all got wet. My sleeping bag was wet and we were going to sleep another night in that cold damp tent. And he gave me his mummy bag, which was in much better shape than my sopping wet sleeping bag that slightly melted as it was next to the fire.

Mark: I will always remember his gracious giving attitude towards me. 

Jason: Thank you. So with that, is there anything else you want to add before we close out? 

Mark: The association of treatment for sexual abusers called ATSA is an organization that really needs a shout out. These are people who do the treatment for people who are required to register on a sexual offense registry, uh, and you have been convicted of a sexual offense.

Mark: These are people who do use the words, the words that need to be said. It doesn't happen in court like it needs to. Certainly didn't happen in my dad's case. [00:43:00] They need to have more power given to them because they know what they're doing. They have the science to back up the decisions that they make and they are making a difference.

Mark: In recidivism rates, things are getting better and better as the science gets more and more developed. We need to acknowledge that. All right. Amber, final 

Jason: thoughts? 

Amber: Well, again, I just want to thank you for coming and for sharing so authentically. This issue is very, very dear to me for a number of different reasons.

Amber: And what I really would like our listeners to consider as they're They reflect upon your story is the real need for education and you know, you talked a little bit about the prosecutor and how prosecutors have this discretion that's available to them and really having prosecutors look at when this language is used.

Amber: And really having [00:44:00] lawyers educated on utilizing this language and the nuances that go along with Alzheimer's and dementia, that prosecutors would really look at these things and use that discretion that's available to them to really think about what's going to be in the public safety interest, what's going to be in the interest of all of the actors involved, and it seems to me that many times With this situation that the criminal legal system is not the best place to deal with harm that's been caused.

Amber: So, and again, I am so pleased that you were able to join us today and keep up the good work that you're doing every day, sometimes a win is getting up in the morning and making sure everybody's fed and bathed and then some days it's a win in the legislature. So just take it one day at a time and keep doing what you're doing.

Mark: Thank you for having me here. This is a unique opportunity for me to be able to talk about something that many people turn away from 

Jason: Thank you, [00:45:00] mark. I wish you all the best you're honoring your parents by continuing to care for them and then taking that extra step to try to Make sure that other families don't have to experience the pain that you have that's very commendable So I appreciate that you were here as a guest until next time amber 

Amber: We'll see you next time.

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