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Amplified Voices
Amplified Voices is a podcast that lifts the voices of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Hosts Jason and Amber speak with real people in real communities to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Together, they explore shared humanity and real solutions for positive change.
Amplified Voices
Ryan Myers: Clearing the Board Isn't Justice - Season 6, Episode 6
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A single accusation can redraw your entire life, especially when the system is under pressure to “clear the books.” In this conversation, Amber and Jason are joined by Ryan from Connecticut, who walks us through a path that starts with a New Haven childhood filled with sports, community programs, and a deep love of reading, then collides with policing tactics, media narratives, and courtroom dynamics that can make innocence feel irrelevant.
Ryan shares what it’s like to be treated as a prime suspect without understanding you’re even being watched, to be arrested publicly at gunpoint, and to see your name and face broadcast before trial. From there, we dig into the machinery behind wrongful conviction stories: a case built on the testimony of a single informant, the way jury selection can tilt outcomes across racial and economic divides, and how “felony murder” charges can multiply exposure even when the facts do not add up.
We also put real numbers on the trial penalty. Ryan explains why he refused an 18-year plea deal, then received a 100-year sentence after trial, later won an appeal, and still faced the brutal reality that an overturned conviction does not automatically mean freedom. Finally, we talk reentry and healing: halfway house support, rebuilding work skills, and the lasting psychological impact of incarceration, from fear around law enforcement to learning how to trust again.
Want to support Ryan's efforts to push back on the system? Visit: https://www.givesendgo.com/help-fund-ryans-fight-for-accountability
If Ryan’s story moves you, subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs to hear it, and leave a review so more people can find Amplified Voices.
Opening And The Show’s Mission
IntroEveryone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories? To have conversations with real people in real communities. A way to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.
Meet Ryan Myers From Connecticut
JasonHello and welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices. I'm your host, Jason, here with my co-host, Amber. Good morning, Amber.
AmberGood morning, Jason.
JasonAmber, today we have a special guest, Ryan Myers from Connecticut. Good morning, Ryan. Good morning.
RyanHow are you doing?
JasonPretty good. So, Ryan, we're going to start off with the same question we typically ask on amplified voices, and that is, could you tell us a little bit about your life before your involvement with the criminal legal system? And then what brought you into it?
RyanI was born in Wilmington, North Carolina. I came to Connecticut when I was like two years old with my mother and my sister. We moved to New Haven, Connecticut. From there, we moved to the Wood Street in the New Haven area. And then we finally moved to Washington Avenue and stuff. I was always active in sports and everything. Back then, we had several outlets as far as recreational facilities. We had the YMCA and we had the prominent one, which is everybody known worldwide, the Boys Club. So the one that we had was the Albi Booth Boys Club, which we all like to go to because they had the Olympic-size swimming pool. Were you a swimmer? I became a swimmer, but I didn't get on no swim team. I just like through summer camp. If you wanted to be like a junior lifeguard, I had to do the lifeguard test through the Red Cross back then.
AmberRight.
RyanYou had the Red Cross that was very active back then in the communities and stuff, as far as like with CPR and then a lot
Childhood, Sports, And Community Outlets
Ryanof life-saving emergency stuff they taught you at a young age and stuff, which was cool. I don't know if they still do it now, but when I was growing up, there were several things that you can do and stuff as a youth to keep you busy and stuff. Yeah. So what was this, what was your main sport? My main sport was football. But I could play several sports. I could play basketball, football, baseball, soccer. I can say I was the I was an athlete. I was an average athlete, but I just excelled more in football. All right.
AmberAnd you liked football best?
RyanYeah. Yeah. That was kind of like my passion.
AmberAll right.
RyanKind of like my passion.
AmberSo how long were you in New Haven? How long were you there?
RyanAll the way up until I was incarcerated. I was in, I lived in New Haven.
AmberSo New Haven feels like home because you were there since you were two.
RyanYeah. A lot of was say, I was born here, but I was raised in New Haven. Just born in Wilmington, North Carolina and raised in New Haven. Like a lot of guys that I know.
JasonSo you had a sports-filled childhood. You're doing life-saving type activities with the Red Cross. And then you were you went to school. I read that you were a reader. Did your passion for reading start early or did that come later?
RyanI was early through my mother. I kind of didn't grow up watching TV like a lot of people. So reading was like was an outlet for some of us. We went to the library just to hang out. That's one of the places that we hung out at and that we met up at with friends and everything. So reading was just something that it just came, you know, and I just as I grew older, I just started reading more and more.
AmberWhat is your favorite genre?
RyanI like thriller. I read a lot of, I used to I read a lot of James Patterson and stuff.
AmberYeah, I'm a I'm a mystery fan too.
RyanI like a little mystery, a little Robert Ludlow, the Patricia Cornwell, the Scarpeta series and stuff. I like the Russian writers and stuff, like Fydor Dolf Savowski and Alexander Sloshenichy and stuff, Leo Tolstoy. I like authors like that. You know, I read Friedrich Nietzsche. I sort of like just read a genre of a different genre of books and stuff, mainly, you mainly when I was incarcerated and stuff. Just something to just keep the mind occupied and stuff, because the mind, mind not being occupied in there and stuff, you can lose it real quick. You can kind of lose it.
JasonI want to talk more about that later, but how do we get from all these great activities that you're doing as a youth to finding yourself incarcerated?
RyanI used to run with a a a pack of friends, like what we called in, we call crews and stuff, not like gangs and stuff, crews, like mainly guys that I grew up with in a gang. I got caught up in a situation when I was younger. So my first experience with being incarcerated, I went to jail September 26, 1986. That's the first time I ever been incarcerated. I didn't come home until around April of 1988. I was like, I think 15 or 16. And I just built the John R. Manson Youth Institution, what they call NYI.
AmberTell us a little bit about the sort of climate in New Haven at that time. So you're saying this was 1986. Tell us a little bit about what did that look like between communities and policing and all of that.
RyanFor the most part, it was a cool climate because one crack didn't hit, like crack didn't hit them. Okay. The heavy drug use didn't hit yet. The most anybody was doing was like drinking quartz of Budweiser. This before Budweiser went to 40 ounces. They were quartz, 32 ounces. Wow. And you was getting for five dollars, you were getting up. You was getting a bag, you getting a bag, a nickel bag of weed, five dollars. You get you'd get eight to ten joints, depending on how you roll. So that that's basically what everybody was doing and stuff. But if you did, if you had those that sold marijuana, that's what they did. And then you have some that sold cocaine, that was only because they were connected to other people that had leeway to it and everything. So that was kind of good because it helped you have money in your pocket throughout the summer and everything like that. Or some people got jobs at Burger King, McDonald's.
JasonSo when you were 15, you're with this crew, and this the crew was involved in drug sales. Is that what was happening?
RyanMy first time I went in for attempted robbery. It was an altercation with another guy, and he got hurt real bad. It spun off until that, oh, we were trying to rob him. The situation that occurred is that two crews got into a fight and he got hurt. And then he said that, oh, these people right here robbed him. He knew several of us because we all went to the same school. We went to a school called Roberto Clemente. Or Roberto Clemente was an influx of blacks and Hispanics. You know what I'm saying?
AmberAnd so you ended up in a situation which is basically like a teenage fight between crews.
RyanThat's basically what it is. It was like, you know what I'm saying? Because at the time, people had just got a taste of break dancing and pop locking and everything. So it was you had crews and stuff. It's just like they had little dances. You go to these dances, it wasn't no fighting, it was more or less like, let's take it to the dance floor, let's battle. Stuff like that. And then that kind of carried over to where now it's like you running with a crew and it turned into where now people may get physical. Now, if you meet crews, now it wasn't no dancing or breakdancing or whatever. Let's like let's plug it out.
JasonSo you were in you were in Manson for how long?
RyanAbout 28, 29 months.
AmberAnd so you're 15 years old. This is not an experience that you've had before.
RyanRight.
AmberOkay, so you end up incarcerated. Give us a little bit of what was that experience as a 15 year old?
RyanYeah, I just I considered it like a boarding school. I wasn't going home to my family. Back then, in that system right there, they had a lot of programs in order to what they quote unquote said rehabilitate you. You could get your GED. They had trades, they had like plumbing, you could be electrician, they had carpentry courses. I just so happened to be in the carpentry, in the Vogue. I was in G cottage. And then you had a different, you had an influx of people from all over different. At the time, as far as juveniles, you only had a handful of guys in there that had a lot of time. I remember a couple dudes. One guy I definitely remember distinctly, he was a big dude. He had 25 years. Until this kid named Dean came there, and the kid Dean that came there, he had 50, 60 years, he killed his grandmother. That's when a lot of juveniles started coming with a more bigger time.
JasonOh wow. So you went in if you went in at 15 and came out around 17, close to 18 by the time you came out, right?
RyanYeah.
Juvenile Lockup And Early System Exposure
JasonAnd then when you came out, was that the last time you were incarcerated before the the lengthy sentence you did? No.
RyanNo. My second incarceration was I went in January 3rd, 1909.
AmberSo what happened between the time you come out of the juvenile system? You've you you've learned some carpentry. So you come out, and then what happens between that time and your next involvement? What were you doing at that time?
RyanI think I got a job at Burger King, but at the time, people had just introduced cocaine. Not crack at the time, just powdered cocaine. So you just had a handful of people now peddling cocaine.
AmberWhen you came out, did you experience any barriers? You had just been doing something else for four years. Did you have to explain that to employers?
RyanHave you ever been incarcerated where it wasn't a questionnaire application? I don't even think they were doing background checks back then.
AmberOkay.
RyanSo let alone we're talking 1988, and it's like the city of New Avon was still bustling and everything. And then I live seven blocks away from Yale University. So at that time, we can I could walk through. If I was to go across town to another side of town, I could cut through. I could literally cut through Yale, I can walk through the campus back. This is how lax that New Haven was at the time, and it wasn't a high volume of crime going on. It just over a period of time, that's when it changed. When I came home at 88, it just that now people wasn't just selling weed. People were selling cocaine. You got involved in the cocaine sale. Yeah. Okay.
AmberYou were selling or using, or a little bit of both?
RyanI was selling.
AmberRight. You were using your entrepreneurship skills in a misdirected way.
RyanYeah, definitely. Because at the time, it's like a lot of young black men my age at that time. That's what we were doing. Like some, I got friends that come from a family of eight. Some come from a family of 10. You the oldest. So it was you're not focused on by your family by your parents or stuff. And it's most of us grew up in single mothers, single parents. Like me, I grew up a single parent. My mother worked two jobs. My mom's working around.
JasonSo, Ryan, did you see it as an easier path to getting some money? Or was it just this is what everybody's doing and this is something I can do?
RyanAll right, my mom's. Well, I was incarcerated, my mom's had an aneurysm. So back then in the system, they used to allow you to have furloughs. You could go home on the weekend and come back on Sunday. After you've been in a certain amount of time, you accumulate a certain amount of good time. My mom had an aneurysm. So my mom was in ICU. The doctor called there. They made it to where I got emergency furlough. So I went home on that Friday. My mother's younger sister came and got me with her husband. They took me to the hospital. I seen my mother. She couldn't speak or nothing like that, but she was happy to see me. I could tell by her face. Her jaw was twisted and everything. She had to learn how to speak and walk all over again and everything. So that kind of sat in my mind. That was in my mind kind of when I came home. Because in myself, I wasn't trying to be a burden for her. Because when I came home, she kind of like still wasn't fully functional to work. So she was collecting disability and everything. So here it is. I'm the oldest son. I just came home from prison. I wasn't trying to allow my mother to take care of me or nothing like that, even though she would have, but I wasn't trying to put that strain on her.
AmberYou were trying to make your own way.
RyanYeah, basically, and then help out and stuff like that, even though she wasn't trying to take the money or nothing like that. So I used to just secretly pay bills. I used to just secretly pay certain bills and stuff.
AmberI have a particular question that's coming up for me because you mentioned that back then in New Haven, you would walk through the Yale campus, and it was just open and this and that. When you were walking through the Yale campus, did you ever think this is a place for me? I can go here someday.
RyanNah. Nah, nah. Believe it or not, like, you know, it was a lot of racism.
AmberYeah, no, I believe it. That's why I asked the question.
RyanBelieve it or not, I'm not gonna say everybody. I came across some, I came across some good Yale students and stuff with my last case. The guy that interviewed me, Will Smith, he was a good dude. I met some good students and stuff there. I met a uh a professor and anything. That was cool because downtown was open. So it was a mix of people. And also, too, that was like the height of hip-hop, uh uh whole musical culture. So that in itself kind of brought people together, but also too, there was still the under it's laid apart. It's it don't matter to whatever genre, whatever place you came from, it's just that people you had all these students from different countries and everything, and some coming from families that own Fortune 500 companies and stuff, people was just frowning on your stuff like that.
JasonSo, can we go forward a little bit? So you have you're incarcerated when you when you're young at 15 to 17, then you go back in a few years later for this cocaine, and then you come out again. And then is that the last time you went in before your long stay?
RyanYeah, I've I've been my whole entire life. I've I've been incarcerated three times, September 26, 1986. My second time of being incarcerated was January, January 2nd, 3rd of 1990. And then the last time for my long stretch was March 3rd, 1992.
JasonAll right, you're 22, 23 years old. You were incarcerated as a youth. You're incarcerated for a little while as an adult for selling now at this point. So, first was for a fight, second time is for selling, and now we have this your longest stretch. This is the meat of your story, I think, which is could you tell us a little bit about what happened?
How He Became A Murder Suspect
RyanFebruary 27th of 1992, a fellow by the name of Edward Moore was murdered and robbed on the corner of Frank Street and Washington Avenue in Laven, Connecticut. And then I were interviewed by two homicide detectives, which were named John Pontu, and the other one was Officer Joe Green. When they first initially approached me, I don't know nothing about her because where I lived at on DeWitch Street was exactly like across from where this crime was committed. Like I can see the whole crime scene area from my front porch. I can see, I can see everything because I live right next to the school, Roberto Clemente. They had the track and they had the open basketball courts and they thing, which a lot of us attended when we played sports. We'd go out there and play basketball, or some people who jog the track. Or nines out of ten, some people just sat there and just die high. You know, you just smoke weed and drunk beer. And then, like I told you, at the time, it was like people were into the hip-hop culture, so people listen to music and everything. Someone came out there at the time, what they call boombox, the big radio playing, the latest hip-hop album or whatever.
AmberI love how you feel like you had to explain what a boom box is because it is uh no longer a thing that we use, but uh I I do remember the boom box.
JasonNow, this this murder happens. Do you know the person who was murdered?
RyanNo, no, I never knew. The thing is, I had just been released from prison around December of 1991. So from that time right there, all the way up until March 3rd, 1992, I wasn't even home nearly close to 90 days when this occurred. That was the last thing farthest from my mind. I kind of my second time being released from prison, my mindset had just changed dramatically being in there. I was like, I just kind of got tired of it. I was like, I just told myself, yo, I can't do this no more.
AmberAnd you were just released from adult prison, which was significantly different than the first experience you had.
RyanWay, way different. You had to really be on your P's and Q's because an argument over toast in the child walk could turn into a big folk-scale riot. Actually, I was in a riot while I was incarcerated at JB Gates. So I know full firsthand how the mindset was totally different from being in Juvenile to being in adult prison.
JasonSo when you were released, you're thinking you were you're gonna do everything you can to get your life back on track and make up for lost time.
RyanYeah, I just I just was like putting it at the time, too, Yale New Haven Hospital was hiring. So I had put in applications there, and then several other places and stuff that I had put in that were advertised and they were hiring and everything. And then also, too, I had signed up for uh a vocational program for a well being with Eli Whitney School that they were offering and stuff. They were giving out grants if you wanted to take up a trade.
JasonSo how did you get connected to the murder?
RyanThere was a kid that before I think I went to prison, I had a little, I had a little problem with. We just didn't get along and stuff like that. And then at the time, like I told you, like crews turned in. They still was crews, but now they was calling them cliques or posse, whatever, whichever. So the guy that got murdered, he was running with these guys that I had the problem with. They hustled on the same block. So they all was kind of like cool or whatever, even though they were from different crews or cliques. And a friend of mine's that I'm still cool with to this day, he's in North Carolina. He he beat me. Back then there were beepers, wasn't no cell phones.
AmberOh god, wow, we're going back to the beeper. Okay.
RyanHe beat me. I called him because that day I was with a good friend of mine's named Timothy. Me and him was out fixing this car, and then I got a beat from this brother. I called him back, like, what's going on? And then he was like, tell me you didn't do it. Do what? It's like, yo, you killed Shabazz. I was like, kill Shabazz? So I say, which Shabazz are you talking about? And then I said, LL Shabazz? And he was like, no, when I say LL Shabazz, I'm talking about this guy named Shabazz, he was a good friend of the rapper LL Cool J. LL Cool J used to come to New Haven a lot. Big Daddy Kane, the rapper, used to come to New Haven a lot. Biz Markey used to come to New Haven a lot. So we were privileged to be around these dudes that were like the forefathers of the next generation of hip hop. And this guy, Shabazz, was one of the guys that ran with LL Cool J at the time. And I was like, nah, he was like, no. So I said, Who are you talking about? So I went and seen her, then he explained everything to me. Then he was like, yo, these guys are saying boom, boom, boom. So I went with my friend Tim Rose and I went around there where they hung at, where they sold at, which was um Arch Street at the time.
AmberAnd so you find yourself being questioned, how does that transpire? Detectives show up at your door, find you out when you're walking around.
RyanLike probably a week and a half after that, after the murder, they show up at my mother's house. And when they come to my mother's house, they want to talk to me. They're asking me a bunch of questions and stuff like that. And I'm like, I don't know nothing about it. I said, they got nothing to do with it. I said, that ain't in my MO to be doing that or nothing like that. I said, this is what I do. And then one, the good cop, bad cop scenario. One cop, yo, you know what you did, this and this and that. The other one, you know, chill, calm down. Trying to play the role. And I just like, I don't know what you're talking about. Then I just, yo, listen, unless you're charging me. With something, I don't want to talk no more. I get out of my house. Officer Joe Green and Officer Joe Josephon, too, they left my house. So next thing I know, maybe probably the first week of March, I left my house. I'm just walking to go see a friend because they didn't live too far. I didn't have to drive. So that's what I kind of did in my neighborhood. I'm from there. I used to just walk, I walk around. So I walked to go see a friend. And as I was walking to go see a friend, I see a female that I grew up with. She passed away. Her name was Gloria. Me and her were talking. She was pregnant at the time. And while me and her was talking, Chevy Korsica pulled up, and two guys got out. And when they got out, they had guns drawn. So I was like, yo, listen, this is about to get ugly. I said, yo, you need to move with your baby and anything. She were like adamant, like, nah, I'm not going nowhere. She's like, they're gonna have to kill all of us. I was like, nah. I was like, yo, don't bring your baby into this right here. And then that's when one of them pulled out a batch and he was like, get on the ground. I was like, yo, I'm not getting on the ground. I was like, if you're gonna shoot me, I'm like, go ahead and shoot me. I'm like, you're not gonna shoot me while I'm on the ground. He's like, yo, I'm an officer, I'm not gonna tell you again. I was like, whatever. I was like, I can get one of those fake badges from New York. And then next when I looked up, I seen the Channel 8 news truck coming up, a car coming up the one way, and then I seen another detective car with a with a regular cruiser coming up the one way as well. And that's when I realized, oh, I cool. And then that's when I got on the ground.
JasonFrom the way you're describing it, from what you're telling us, you had just gotten out of prison. The winter just ended, right? So now you're into March. First time you're actually outside, probably. March is happening, a murder happens, your name gets floated by somebody who had a past, some sort of beef with you because you were in a rival crew. Is that am I catching this all right?
RyanIt just me and this kid, we ever since we were in school, me and him just never got along.
JasonSo there's a personality, like in any in a normal circumstance, a personality conflict, you just avoid those people and things are okay. But this guy threw your name out there. That's what the police have as evidence is this guy saying that you are the one who committed this murder, and now you're finding yourself with not only the police, but now these the media is going to capture this and broadcast. So you're you've also you've already been tried and convicted before it even starts.
RyanSomewhat, you know what? Any any murder case in New Haven that transpires already in the news is being a lot. So once once my arrest came down, it's like you're putting a face to the crime now. So now I'm the face to the crime. I was arrested. I was brought, I was created.
JasonLet's not lose sight for a second of the fact that somebody was murdered. There was somebody out there that committed this murder that is not at this point being targeted. And but the family of the person that was murdered doesn't know that. There must be some relief for them to know that that the person's been caught, assuming that they know who that is.
AmberI think a a few things I have some curiosities about that as you went through your story. And I just want to highlight because as you're telling the story, it seems very matter-of-fact.
JasonRight.
AmberThis is how it was. I don't know. It's just arriving in my mind and body as kind of crazy. People drive up in plain clothes in your neighborhood while you are talking to a friend, right? They hop out with guns, and you're just telling the story like it's just this is what happens. That should not have happened to you.
RyanLike they were watching me. So that's why those officers popped up there like that. You know what I'm saying? So they I was still under investigation because I was like considered the prime suspect. So that's how those officers ended up at that place right there. It was unbeknownst to me because I didn't think that that they were gonna just, they were just gonna pursue me for the murder because they just came to my house question, they asked me a bunch of questions, but I didn't know at the time that I was considered the prime suspect.
AmberYou are trying to do the right thing. You're applying for jobs, you're trying to move forward from a difficult time. And so, by virtue of being in proximity, being in a time where there was a lot of violence starting to happen, you just happen to be the one that becomes the face of this crime.
RyanYeah, definitely.
AmberOkay, so what happens next?
RyanI'm brought to one union avantal. I'm put on channel weight news, which people can see me now.
JasonIf you're someone who lives in New Haven, that was like the channel that people were watching, right? So everybody you know is watching this on the news.
RyanYeah, you had the three major channels back then was NBC, CBS, Navy C. But at the time you had WTNH, which is Channel Week News. That was the breaking news. They they cut into at the time, three o'clock was General Hospital. They cut into General Hospital. That's how my mother found, that's how my mother found out I was that they arrested me for the crime and everything. So I'm like, I'm just in shock. I'm just like, what's going on? I'm just here it is. I just came from being incarcerated to where like I'm not doing anything. I'm going to these volunteer programs and anything that to do these volunteer hours and stuff in order to get the grant to go to Eli Whitney and take up a trade and stuff like that. And then at that time, if you were on parole, you were required to go to other programs and stuff. So basically, if you didn't have a job, you were required to go to certain programs. So that's what I was doing. But I in hindsight didn't think I was gonna be incarcerated for a murder. I just I was in shock. You know, I wasn't even home 90 days. But then to even find out why I was in and holding that, I had two other co-defendants linked with me to this crime who I didn't even know.
AmberI mean, that just really has to be a shock to the system because it's not, oh, these are all people I know. I might have some knowledge of anything that happened. These are just people you don't know. And now all of a sudden they're inserting you into this situation, which to Jason's point early, clearly, like harm is harm. If somebody's life has been taken, let's look at what happened and help that family through and get to the truth. But it doesn't seem like that was exactly what was happening here.
RyanNah, not at that, not at that time because I just there were a lot of crimes going on and stuff. And I don't know what the mindset was with the New Haven Police Department then, but it's just that a lot of things that were being done, they wasn't being done to preserve justice for anybody, for the family, or even for those who were accused of these crimes. Right. This was just a situation
Informants, Bias, And The Trial Penalty
Ryanwhich were let's clear the board.
JasonThe main evidence against you was just testimony from people who weren't necessarily credible themselves. One person.
RyanYeah, one person named Andre. That was it. He was implicated in the crime as well. And then he became state's witness. Once he became state witness, they gave him immunity to testify against me. So the only thing they had to link me to this case was just his testimony, nothing else. He wasn't even involved. Back then, what you had was CIs, what they call confidential informants. He was a confidential informant. Later on, in the progression of my incarceration, I found out a lot of information. I found out that these officers were using him in several other cases as a confidential inform. So basically, he was connected then to them by the hip. So basically, they had him testifying in other different cases, their minds. So that's what I later found out. He never was involved in other cases. They just used that as a ploy in order to get him to fabricate a false statement on me about this murder. He just was a he just was an informant that they use and brought into this to fabricate this case because this case was based on hearsay.
AmberThis goes back to sort of tactics, policing tactics and different things like that. So when an informant is like, this is something that they do, they find themselves in proximity to crimes, right? And so they have this information. That doesn't mean that they were necessarily always involved in the crime or whatever, but they do have knowledge of it, which then makes them complicit, right? And so if they're complicit, they could be charged, not that law enforcement would charge them, but law enforcement is gonna use that you could be complicit, a mechanism or leverage, and then that person who has been in proximity to multiple crimes is utilized as a law enforcement tool. Am I characterizing that correctly, right?
RyanYeah, it's like in in lay terms, like you coerce. Plus two, logically, any no individual within the urban neighborhood where I come from is trying to go to prison for the rest of their life over a crime they didn't commit. So his natural instinct is like, I'm gonna preserve myself. When I came across him, I asked him. I was like, yo, brother, I was like, yo, do I know you? He said, he told me to my face. He said, nah, I don't know you. So I said, yo, why you got me caught up in this murder case? And he was like, I can't do no murder bear. That's what he said to my face. He said, I can't do no murder bear. Now I looked at him, I said, yo, brother, what makes you think that I can do a murderbid?
AmberThis this is really a sort of underbelly of things that people who may not have encountered the system and the tactics that are used think doesn't happen, right? But these are real, and this affects real people's lives. And I'm not super convinced that it's only coercion. There is definitely money changing hands between law enforcement and informants as well.
RyanYeah, that was that was one of the things right there. Well, also, too, there there was a case that involved a person that she was on dope. She was on, she was a big heroin addict. They snatched her up, they sat her there for three, four days until she got to the point where she started detoxing from the heroin, and then that's when she gave up before state. There were a lot of corrupt under tactics that were done in order to get statements from people regarding cases and stuff, because none of these cases could be solved unless you had people coming there lying. And this lady, she gave a statement on her deathbed stating that these dudes didn't commit this crime.
JasonAnd next step is you end up standing before a judge.
RyanYeah, I went to I went to trial. I picked my jury in 1994 around June, about the beginning of June. Went to trial with an attorney named Leo Ahern. But before I went to a probable cause hearing with my co-defendant, his name is Dow. They didn't find probable cause on me for felony murder. I was charged with felony murder, robbery in the first degree, conspiracy to commit robbery in the first degree, and criminal attempt to commit assault in the first degree. I was charged with those four charges. When I went to a probable cause hearing, they never found probable cause on me for a felony murder. It was dropped to mere slaughter. So after that, that's when they recharged me with the felony murder. So I went into trial with that around June of 1994 on felony murder, and I was found guilty.
AmberReal quickly, for clarification for folks who don't understand the distinctions between the different charges, felony murder has to do with you not actually committing a murder, but being party to a crime that happens and a murder results because of it. So for instance, a burglary and somebody dies in that process, and maybe you are not the person that killed that person, or you're not being accused of killing that person, but you are being charged with murder because you were party to that crime. Is that correct?
RyanYeah. Yeah.
AmberSo first you think I'm being charged with felony murder, then it's being knocked to manslaughter, which would be a positive in the right direction. Then you're back to felony murder, and that's what you're ultimately convicted of.
RyanYes.
AmberAnd so I do want to just mention it's pretty rare that people go to trial. Right? And so you're like, I went to trial. Tell us a little bit about sort of that process of deciding to go to trial, what you were thinking at the time, all of that.
JasonAnd was the jury selection process fair in your mind?
RyanNo. No way whatsoever. The jury selection is fair because, first of all, if you're from Greenwich, you're from Redford, you're from East Line, you're from Lynchfield, you're from New Canaan. You're not a jury of my peers. You don't live in my, you don't live in my neighborhood. You don't live nowhere within my my neighborhood. So you can't really fully understand what goes on in my neighborhood. Because normally, no disrespect. People that come from those towns and stuff like that, they're fed news. They're fed news in which we're everyone as human beings, we form our opinions. Once you pick 12 jurors, you got 12 individual mindsets that have their own individual view of the legal system. Some of them outright said it. As far as I'm concerned, he's guilty. If he was arrested for it, he's guilty. That in itself was a shot right there. I'm like that. You form your opinion already. That could, I'm that's not a juror of my peers. A juror of my peers would be people that live in New Haven, West Haven, North Haven, East Haven, even Brant, even just Brantford right there that I could consider. But I had a jury pool of people that one, some of them didn't want to be there because when you're called for a jury, you have to take time out from work. And when you're taking time out from work, that's money taken off your table or bills not being paid as they should be paid. Because the stipend at the time, I think, for a juror was like $50 or $75 a day. People already had formulated their opinion. I once I got 12 jurors, they were voidiered in anything. I had altogether it was it was 16 jurors.
AmberOkay, so I want to add a little context for our listeners who are not from Connecticut, right? So um, you know, you're giving a flavor of like where people are coming from and this and that. And I think that's a really useful thing to talk about. Connecticut has some significant racial disparities and divides that are created by policy that has to do with a history of redlining and housing policy and a lot of different things that create some of the worst racial disparities in the country. And so when you're talking about Greenwich, there is that is one of the wealthiest communities in America, not just Connecticut. And some of the communities that you're describing are just to be fair, predominantly white and wealthy communities. That's an important piece of context for people to understand and hear. So please tell us what happened.
RyanYes, I was or for I was or for 18 years for manslaughter, but I'm not sure. You're like, I didn't do that. I wasn't trying to take it because sometimes certain hardships in your life make you want to fight. And that was one of the things that made me want to fight. I came against across a guy when I was in the county jail name at Eddie Ford, and this dude showed me how to use law books, certain law books. I just started looking at the statues on my case, finding out how much time these cases held under these statues and everything. And then I just started going through the statements and everything. Once I start going through the statements and I start going through the police reports and everything, then I realized none of this stuff matches up. None of this stuff matches up. And then I just happened to be going through my paperwork because you consider whenever you charge with Sony Crying, the state has to give up full disclosure. They have to give up everything that they have regarding the case. So I had that. When I go through that stuff, I came across this guy police report. In your police report, it has what you're charged with, the date you were charged with it, and who the arresting officers were. Again, it just so happened that this guy was arrested by the same officer 18 times in one month. Go figure.
AmberInteresting.
RyanAnd I told my lawyer this and everything, and that's another disparity right there. When you're dealing with the legal system, certain lawyers, and everything, because I had a lawyer, which was Leonard Hearn, which he was specially appointed. Because whenever you have co-defendants in your case, and they're the public defender office cannot represent people that with the same charge because it's a conflict of interest. They do pro bono work. So, you know, I guess however many pro bono cases that law firm take throughout the year or whatever, my mine's just happened to be one that came across their desk.
AmberYou know. Okay, so as long as it's free, it's not conflict of interest. So you end up going to trial, walk us through that process when the jury comes back and what's going on with you that day.
RyanI was, I guess I wasn't even in the courtroom. Like when I heard the guilty for the first charge, it was just like nothing else really mattered because I knew that it was I was done for because I already looked at the statutes. I knew that with felony murder, it held 60 years. And robbery one held 20 years, and conspiracy commit robbery one. That was like 10 years, and then the other charge was like 10 years. So I knew that I was looking at a life sentence.
AmberAnd who was in the courtroom that day?
RyanWas my mother. It was my mother's older sister, my aunt. At the time, it was my daughter mother in there and everything. And then a good friend of mine's named Michael Pestuff, who we still friends to this day over 50-some years, 40-some years, me and this guy have been still friends and stuff.
JasonDid you have family support in the sense that they all were standing by you and believed in your innocence?
RyanYeah. Yeah. Because when this crime was committed, they knew I was with family members when this crime was committed. My house was right there in the vicinity of where this crime is committed. We heard the gunshots.
JasonSo how does that, how does having an alibi like that not come work in your favor?
RyanI I'm still trying, I'm still baffled by that myself, man. Like I told you, man, you got 12 individuals with 12 individual views of the law. And you may have, from my point of view, I knew there, there was two to three people that wasn't trying to find me guilty because there were three ladies that they were crying when they came out. They were crying when they came out to give the verdict and anything. I understood then that they really didn't want to find me guilty. I don't know what went down in that jury room. I just know that they came back out with guilty verdicts. And when they came out with guilty verdicts, I just was crushed. And I just went back to the county jail, cried myself to sleep. And then the guy Eddie came to my cell and he was like, yo, listen, man, you're gonna have to regroup. You're gonna have to go through these appellate processes and everything. Like, yo, you still got a shot. Because I kind of like, in a sense, I had kind of given up. I was just like, oh, all right, this is what my life's gonna be now, and the rest of my life in prison. I got a three-year-old daughter out there, my mother, brother, sister. So I just was just I just was lost at the time.
JasonSo they found you guilty and they convicted you to for how many years? A hundred years. Wait, wait, wait.
AmberSo so you hear, okay, so you find that you're found guilty.
unknownYeah.
AmberClearly, this is a crushing blow.
JasonI I just want to state the fact that I've known Ryan for a little while. I'm learning more today than I've ever learned, but clearly an intelligent man with some. Much potential reads reads Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and Nietzsche, right? He's got all of his potential. He was a sports athlete in his youth, and he's got this mind where he knows every single date of everything that happened to him. Like this guy, I don't know. I'm just blowing.
AmberI mean, I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday. And you've got I'm really in awe of the memory that you have.
RyanBecause this had a profound effect on my life. I know one thing about me, I always had a strong mindset of memory. I can retain things. I still have that now. I can retain things. Just like this is the reason why I probably it was easy for me to learn the Arabic language and stuff when I was in prison. I can be, if I'm still alive in years and God still allows me to have my memory and everything, I still will remember these dates. October 24th, 1994. The judge, whose name was Judge Ripley, the prosecutor named was Apolito Vitali for the state, and my lawyer, Leo or Heron. I was sentenced to 60 years for felony murder, 20 years for robbery one, 10 years for a criminal attempt to commit robbery one, and 10 years for criminal attempt to commit assault in the first degree, which is a total effective sentence of 100 years. And October 31st, I was sent to uh Walker Reception in Suffolk, Connecticut to start my sentence.
AmberAnd so let's talk a little bit about this concept of a trial penalty. The plea deal that you were offered was 18 years for reduced charge of manslaughter. Is that right?
RyanYes.
AmberAnd so had you taken that plea, that was the difference between 18 years and because you exercised your right to have a fair trial, your end result became a hundred years. Am I characterizing that correctly?
RyanYes. I wasn't trying to take the 18 years because I was very strong and adamant of the fact that I was innocent. Because I was like, I'm looking at the evidence. What evidence you have? Just have this person right here that's here saying you don't have no clothing for me. You don't have no gun. You don't have nothing. You just have this person, this one person coming in here stating that I committed this crime. Just to give you uh just a little glimpse, real quick. When he was on the stand, he was asked the question that he said in the statement. The statement they asked him, Do you know what type of gun that I had? He said that I had a nine millimeter. Then the next question he was asked, Do you know the difference between a revolver and an automatic? He says, No.
JasonRight. It just goes back to the fact that it's clear that the system is not worried about safety as much as it's worried about punishment.
RyanYeah, because at that time that I was charging anything, New Haven had a lot of murders within that 89, 1989, 1990 year. Also, too, there was like mass incarceration going on. So it's like the pressure that was put on New Haven PD regarding these murders and everything. Some murders were committed and people were caught, and the right people charged with it. Some murders, a lot of people wasn't.
JasonThey were just cleared on the books. You go to prison, you clearly did not serve 100 years because you're sitting here talking to us as a free man today. So, how do we get to freedom and
Overturned Conviction And A Second Trial
Jasonwhat did that look like?
RyanDuring my trial, I had a private investigator. And the private investigator had investigated all the individual jurors. And one of the jurors he came across that happened to be my jury foreman, he had lied on Vor deer. And before you become a potential juror, you're asked several questions. And some of the questions that he was asked was, was he ever a victim of a crime? And he said, No. Do you know of any incidents in which way you were a victim of a crime? Do you know anyone that was a victim of a crime? He said that. He said no. But then come to find out the year before my trial, he was a victim of a crime. He was in his car, and a guy was on a motorcycle, and he turned the wrong way, and the guy cleared the back of his motor vehicle, and the guy hit uh light pole head on and was killed instantly. And the people that were there who seen it, who knew the guy was on a motorcycle, they snatched him out the car and they beat him real bad. The guy's name was Richard Gay. You can look it up. And he was interviewed by a reporter from the New Haven Register. And in the interview, he made a derogatory statement that these kids don't know anything. All they know is that they hang out on the corners and smoke, smoke drugs and sell drugs. He said, if it was up to me, I'll lock them up and work their A like that. So he made a lot of derogatory statements towards about guys that were in my age group at that time and everything. So he never disclosed this. And then once we found this out, we filed a petition, we filed a motion for a new trial. Upon filing this motion for a new trial, Judge Ripley had granted me a new trial. But where he messed up at was he sentenced me before he ruled on the motion. So that was a violation right there in itself. For to just let people know that whenever you go to trial, certain things may occur within your trial, in which that they use for appellate issues later on in case you're found guilty of that crime. You can use these issues as appellate issue to come back in the court or to get a new trial as per se.
AmberSo setting up the procedural conditions or pointing out the procedural conditions that could allow for an appeal is that's what you're saying. Okay. And so you filed, you were granted a new trial, but the procedure wasn't right.
RyanYeah, I was granted the new trial and then the state appealed it. And then later on, the judge vacated his judgment. So now I had to wait on the Connecticut State Supreme Court until I had my appellate here.
AmberAnd so what time frame is all this happening?
RyanAbout four years later, about May 21st of 1998, the state Supreme Court overturned my case. All five judges unanimously decided that this issue in my case was what was wrongful, and that I was granted a full new trial as though. So from October 24th, 1994, up until May 21st, 1998, that's when my appeal was going on. Till then, May 21st of 1998, that's when my case was officially overturned by the state Supreme Court.
AmberWhen a case is overturned, what happens?
RyanI have to start a new trial all over again, meaning I pick a whole new juror. It goes back to the beginning. I'm recharged, I'm given the bond, I'm brought before the court again for uh arraignment, and then I go in to start my jury selection.
AmberUh the reason I asked that question is because a lot of people think that, oh, my thing was overturned. I walked out and I went home.
RyanRight? Nah, that's not the case. That's not the situation in all cases. That some cases it does happen like that, where the state don't want to retry the case and they don't have enough evidence to retry the case, and then the person's released, or there's evidence in which we're uh overabundance of evidence to show that this person didn't commit this crime, and then they just have to be released and stuff. And then some like my cases, the state chose to take me to trial again on it.
JasonSo in this case, you you've got you get a new trial that gives you some hope that it's gonna be less than a hundred years, right? So you're going through, you're hoping to get exonerated and get out, right? But that didn't happen, did it?
RyanNo. I after I picked my 12 jurors, I was just sitting in limbo for 60 days until the judge ordered the state to come up with a solution, or the judge was gonna make a ruling in my favor. And during that time, a manslaughter charge holds only nine to 20 years. So you look at it, I've been incarcerated since March 3rd of 1992. This is 1999. So we're talking like almost six and a half years, close to seven years, that I've been incarcerated. So the state, the judge told them they got 30 days to come up with something. So within that 30 days, probably two, three weeks later, my lawyer, which was Willie Dow from Jacob Gulberg and Dow, he came to see me at county jail and he said, yo, this is the offer they want. 35 suspended after 25 years probation. I was like, let me think about it. So I thought about it, and I was like, I'll take the 20 years from manslaughter. So that's what I did. I took the 20 years from manslaughter. And the only reason why I did this was because there was a guy previously for me that had the same judge that got his case overturned. His made him good friends. His name was Dow. He was given 100 years before me. I went to trial under the same judge at months after him and was given 100 years. So when his case was overturned, he went back to trial, he lost again. They resentened him back to the 100 years again. And I didn't want to take the chance on 12 individuals trying to decide my fate. So I bowed out. I just took 20 years. I took it because I was scared.
JasonYou know, we've we've had this conversation before with other guests. People that have never been through any of this and have never been traumatized by the system, would say if I was innocent of I would just maintain my innocence and I would never accept any type of plea deal. I would just maintain, but they're now facing what you and you've already been through that situation once at this point. And now you're sitting here, you know what could happen. You're seeing it happening to somebody else. Anybody who says otherwise, that it totally makes sense that you would say, okay, right? So you ended up serving, so you went that was about six years, and then if it to 20 years, that would be another 14 years or so, but you didn't serve a full 14. So yeah, I did 14 and a half years. Total.
RyanTotal. So how were you able to be released? My case is overturned. I took the 20 years. I went back into the penal system. I did 14 and a half years, and I was released
Reentry Support, Trauma, And Staying Free
Ryanto a halfway house. I was released to a fellowship house ministries in Groton, Connecticut. I was released there to a work release program and stuff. And then there they taught me how to do a resume and stuff like that. I found a job and everything. Through finding the job, through the case managers there, they helped me manage money and stuff, open up a bank account and everything, gave me clothes in order to go for an interview, show me how to use a tie, put a tie on and what questions that I would be asked in an interview and anything. During the time that I was released, they had programs that was geared towards helping dudes acclimate themselves back into society. You had programs that really truly helped dudes such as myself. I'm not saying everything in the criminal justice system was bad. There were programs, nonprofit programs like AIC and everything, that fully helped dudes such and myself. And I have several dudes that I knew that went through these programs and stuff. They're still out here, such as myself. I've been home now about 20-something years going on 21 years. And I'm thankful for that each day. I'm thankful the people that I came across, helped me certify myself out here within society. Because after doing a lot of that time, you feel some type of way. I still feel it. I still feel the anger within me where certain situations that occur that I still feel the anger. I still have a fear. I still have that fear about going to jail. When I'm in the proximity of any type of law enforcement officer, even though I know I haven't committed a crime, I just still have that fear. And also, too, being incarcerated for that long time, you're not too trusting the people, but it does something to your psyche. You're not too trusting the people. It's just that if I don't feel comfortable with you, I just stay away from you. You know, I had a lot of issues that I had to deal with from being incarcerated. You become more or less withdrawn. And you have a harsher exterior about you. You just become harsh about things. And it's a process that you have to go through in order to turn that type of thinking off and behavior. Because, like I tell people, being incarcerated, you're in an unnatural state. And then being in that state right there, you have to perform to certain things in order to survive. That's it. Back then was like, it was a doggy dog world. It was doggy dog in there. When you was tested, either you folded or you just became the aggressor. And nine out of ten, if you fold it, you're gonna have several people gonna try you.
AmberAnd so are there things about your incarceration experience that really surprised you?
RyanYeah. I didn't think that I would grasp the legal system like I did. I became aware that I could help people and stuff because I did a literacy program in there through the JCs and that stuff like that. I just kind of developed a compassion towards other people that were falsely accused because some of the guys that were falsely accused in a lot of crimes, they were my childhood friends, and one of them was Stefan Morant. I knew Stefan. Me and Stefan played on the same basketball team. We spent the night at each other's house and stuff like that. Our mothers knew each other and everything. To see him come through here, I was like, man, and this is a guy like he wasn't a street dude. He wasn't a guy that was in the streets and stuff like that. Stefan was just a guy that worked, or you know, the a ladies' guy, like, you know. To see him incarcerated, I was like, man, these people really is going crazy. And then the similarities with me and him, we had the same arresting officer.
JasonSo for people who aren't familiar, Stefan Morant was incarcerated, right? He was released.
RyanStefan Morant was accused of a double homicide, in which that him and his co-defender never committed. They were adamant about their innocence thing. Even the FBI had got involved in it, too. And then finally, they found out evidence that they were charged with this through a corrupt cop named Rachi, who was on the homicide division. And then recently, Stefan Morant was awarded $38 million for him being falsely accused of uh double homicide.
JasonHe was awarded $38 million. Who's on the hook for paying that $38 million? I think the state of Connecticut. And are they are they contesting it or is it just moving forward? Most likely they are.
RyanMost likely they are. It's like any other state. Anybody that's being right now, that's the evidence is being shown that these crimes are not being committed by these individuals. No state or no city wants to cop to the fact that, yo, your police officers drop the ball. The whole thing is just admit that you were wrong, come up with some type of relief for these dudes, and then move on. Let them move on, live their life. But the more they just want to fight it.
JasonIt's interesting. Earlier, you were talking about the how Connecticut, Amber was mentioning how Connecticut is a very different experience for people who grew up in affluent, wealthy communities versus in the inner cities, especially during that time period. When you talk to people from those affluent areas, it's like if there's smoke, just fire. Of course they're they've committed the crime. And of course this and all this stuff. That whole perception is there, but you grew up in a very different, a different Connecticut and something where you see a completely different side. It's amazing to be talking with you and to have you here with us.
AmberI just have a couple of different questions. So, how did you end up out of prison prior to the end of the sentence?
RyanI wrote Teresa Lance, who was the commissioner at the time, and I wanted to go to a half-way. I didn't want parole. I didn't, I felt like being incarcerated for that long time, I wasn't trying to report to nobody. I don't want to report to nobody because I felt at that time parole was a setup. Parole was a setup. You could at any given time you could be back, you could be put in jail. One of the stipulations that a lot of dudes don't read is the contracts with parole, is be around any convicted felon. So if you're in a car with a person that's a convicted felon, that's a violation right there. He might be giving, he might be giving you a ride somewhere, but that's a violation right there, depending on what type of parole officer you got. So I went to a halfway house, which worked out for me. I'm still out here.
AmberAnd you had said something interesting that also piqued a bit of curiosity. You were saying that clearly the system is harmful. You've had a negative experience with a lot of parts of the system, but you said something that wasn't all bad. There were programs, but then you mentioned those programs were created and run by nonprofits. So again, this is the outside world trying to help people in spite of a system that's harming them, is what I'm seeing.
RyanYeah, you have programs like some of these programs don't exist no more. And I can understand it now because my job now, I actually believe it or not, I work in the halfway house in which that I was sent to over 20 years ago. And I see the mindset now that comes through there. And it's it's I hate to say it, it's sad. It's sad. It's like now the person as an individual, they have to really want their freedom. If you don't want your freedom, then you're gonna constantly go through that revolving door. Like now, I'm just trying to put together a legal team in order to represent me now to see if I can get any type of compensation for being wrongfully convicted. That in itself is a task.
AmberIt's a struggle, yeah. It's these are almost rare situations where people are being granted any type of relief or settlement for the way the system really operated at that time. What do you think it takes? You mentioned people really need to want their freedom. What do you think it takes for a person to get to a time in their life when they say, I want to do something different? And again, with the idea that the system is putting all these barriers in the way, what kind of mindset shift happens for someone?
RyanA lot of internal reflection. Asking yourself, do you want to be in a situation where your life is controlled from the moment you get up to the moment you go to sleep? You're restricted from any type of interaction with your family, especially if you have kids and anything. And then there's no programs in there to which where a person can educate itself to build this academic or to really sit back and look at their self. I hear that now there's no more law libraries in certain facilities. So dice can't really go study their case or try to put motions in to fight their case. You have to just sit back and rely on an individual out here in society, especially if coming from a public defender's office. Some public defenders are given 40 cases. Out of those 40 cases, eight, eight, eight or nine of them may be murder cases, high-profile cases, in which we're they're not gonna spend a lot of time going over your defense or anything like that. Most of them probably start looking at your defense probably 30 days before you're ready to start picking jury.
AmberIf you had one piece of advice for someone who is at the beginning of a journey, like that, that young Ryan, right? Yeah. Beginning of a journey similar to your own, what would that advice be?
RyanThat advice would be trusting yourself. Staying firm on what it is that you believe as far as it regarding your innocence. Gil Scott Haran said, we say many things change an aspect of our life. We say then since change is inevitable, we should direct change rather than simply continue to go through the change. So that's it. Just be willing to change, be willing to learn each and every day that you're here on this earth. Don't put up barriers and stop yourself from taking in the advice from people from different genres of life. Because I feel that you can learn a lot from people. I learned that over the years that I was in, I was out, I've been out here. I came across people from all walks of life that really truly, sincerely helped me. And one person was my boss right now. I love this woman because she was my caseworker and everything. And it just that she had the patience to see something in me that I didn't see in myself. When I used to just get frustrated about a job, nobody's calling for a job. She's like, keep plugging out, just be patient. And I thank her for that. I really, truly, from the bottom of my heart, I thank this woman.
Advice, Contact, And How To Help
AmberAll right, Jason, any last thoughts before we Yeah, at first I want to thank Ryan.
JasonBut you know, one of the things that he and I had discussed before we came on is he's still making up for a lot of lost time. He had a lot taken from him. We talked about creating a GoFundMe for Ryan, and I'm gonna spend some time with him to get that set up and we'll put that in the show notes. But Ryan, it was really a pleasure to talk with you, and hopefully your story will resonate with the listeners who are hearing your story and being introduced to you for the first time. Before we go, if people want to get in touch with you, do you want to give them away or do you want them to work through us if anybody wants to reach out to you?
RyanYes, they can contact me through you guys or my email is ryan.mys37 at yahoo.com.sg. Um right now I'm just trying to find where I can go to places and talk about my experience as well as expound on the criminal justice system at that time that I was incarcerated. I thank you guys for having me here.
JasonAnd with that, I think we'll leave it with Ryan's last words, and we'll say until next time, Amber. We'll see you next time.
RyanYes, ma'am. Thank you so much. Peace and blessings.
OutroYou've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast listing the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. For more information, episodes, and podcast notes, visit amplifiedvoices.show.
