Jesse Crosson: The Difference Between Running and Growing - Season 6 Episode 3

A teen tries to outrun pain, finds cocaine, and goes from a kid coming of age, to a daily user in a matter of weeks. Then come the crimes, the fear, the SWAT arrest, and a sentence so extreme it reshapes his entire identity: 32 years of prison time at 18 years old. In this episode of Amplified Voices, Jason and guest host, Kim are joined by Jesse Crosson, lived-experience advocate, activist and author of The Best Part of Prison, to talk through what led to that three-month freefall and what it actually takes to rebuild a life after real harm.

We get specific about the emotional engine underneath the story: childhood chaos, feeling unseen, taking on adult responsibility too early, and the way anger can sit quietly for years before it erupts. Jesse shares, how acceptance differs from resignation, and why accountability becomes a starting line instead of a life sentence. We also talk about practical tools he uses then and now, including meditation, therapy, and daily check-ins that help him stop reacting and choose his next move.

After 19 years, a conditional pardon brings him home into a world transformed by COVID, and he’s honest about survivor’s guilt and the role of luck and privilege in reentry. 

From there, we follow his work with the Second Chancer Foundation and Central Virginia Community Justice, including restorative justice and court diversion, plus the hard truth that community healing often depends on storytelling, trust, and real work, not punishment alone. 

Learn more about Jesse at https://jessecrosson.com

Transcript

Welcome To Amplified Voices

Intro 0:12

Everyone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories? To have conversations with real people in real communities. A way to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.

Jason 0:45

Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices. I'm your host, Jason, and today I'm not here with my usual co-host Amber, but I am here with a special guest co-host, Kim. Kim is going to say hello in a second, but I just want to share that she is an advocate. She does a lot of work behind the scenes for our podcast all the time. She has lived experience. She's an author and she has a whole bunch of other credentials. And if she wants to share them, she can. Good morning, Kim.

Kim 1:22

Good morning, Jason. I'm so honored to be here. Thank you.

Jason 1:26

And Kim and I are going to be speaking this morning with Jesse Crosson. Hi, Jesse. Hi, good morning. So, Jesse, could you tell us a little bit about your life before you entered the criminal legal system and what brought you into it?

Childhood Chaos And Feeling Unseen

Jesse 1:44

No, I think when we tell stories, we're really, it depends what perspective we're telling it from. So I think the perspective I had on my life before I went to prison was that I was just another kid. I was just existing in the world like everyone else with the same forces and the same uh tools and the same opportunities. But as I look back now in the perspective of hindsight, I realize that I was a kid who felt trapped, who didn't feel safe, who didn't feel seen, who didn't feel understood, who felt lost in the world.

Jason 2:11

So where did you grow up?

Jesse 2:13

I grew up in Charlestville, Virginia.

Jason 2:15

So you're in Virginia.

Jesse 2:16

Uh I had parents who first bonded over a love of alcohol and drugs, but then got clean when I was two, thankfully. But some of the behaviors were still there until they got divorced when I was seven. And then they both split and repartnered, and I ended up with two families, which I thought was great because I had two Christmases, but also a lot of conflict and a lot of chaos.

Jason 2:33

Okay, so you had lots of parental figures, but say more.

Jesse 2:41

Yeah. So I mean, I had my dad had a very storied past. He could definitely have a number of books written about him and his life and his criminal adventures and his advocacy adventures and you know his reform work after he got clean. My mother was an attorney and very much uh upstanding on the outside, but definitely had some struggles on the inside. Uh same thing with my stepmother, same thing with my stepfather, you know, very very loving, very caring to the degree they could, but people who definitely had their own battles.

Jason 3:04

And you were you an only child?

Jesse 3:07

I was so my father had another child, but I'm an only child between my two parents, and then my mother's only child.

Jason 3:13

And then you have a step sibling. Yes. Okay. All right.

Jesse 3:20

So you grew up in this environment. Thankfully, school was one of the places that I was pretty stable, and one of the places I was really kind of safest and felt most grateful because it was a place I could go. I knew the rules, I knew the structure, I knew it was expected of me. So I could show up and do that. I generally got good grades, I got along well. Definitely felt like an outcast, but school was a place that I actually really valued growing up.

Jason 3:39

So school was like a safety zone. Were you doing hobbies? Were you in sports? Were you in music?

Jesse 3:44

Um, I remember it was kind of an unfair setup because before they got divorced, uh, my mother worked insane hours. My father worked insane hours, but was also going to school. So he was never around except for fun things on the weekend when he had a break. Um, so Saturday and Sunday, my my dad would take me to play t-ball or play soccer or eventually to karate. And my mom was just constantly working and kind of keeping everything together while we were having fun.

Jason 4:04

And so what was that? What was the impact on you?

Jesse 4:06

I didn't realize one at the time because growing up, I didn't realize things could be different or that anything was even going on out of the ordinary that that could have an impact on me. But I definitely felt caught in the middle and I definitely felt responsible. Um, especially after the divorce, I felt really responsible for my mom's happiness or for her peace or for her being okay. And that was something I struggled with, and I still struggled with this. And you were how old seven? I was seven when they were divorced, yeah.

Jason 4:28

And you put that emotional pressure on yourself.

Jesse 4:30

I did. I remember feeling like I had to be the responsible one. I had to be the parent. I had to take care of things and make sure she was okay and she didn't get angry and explode, or she didn't fall into a depression. And if I could do that, then I was a good boy and I could, you know, make everybody happy. And I also built a lot of resentment so that as I got older, that resentment grew, and I eventually was angry at her and angry at the world and angry at my father, and angry that nobody stepped in or even saw what was going on. And that anger kind of fueled the direction I went into. And that direction was hanging out with the wrong crowd, kids who didn't have my best interest at heart, getting high, you know, chasing anything that would make me feel better or kind of alleviate that pain or alleviate that anger.

Jason 5:07

Okay. So you just were trying to escape on some level or feel better about yourself or yeah.

Jesse 5:13

You know, I don't think I was ever modeled, you know, healthy coping mechanisms or healthy ways of adapting. And so I kind of picked up the patterns that I saw around me. And, you know, in some ways I promised, like I promised I would never lose my temper in public. So I was like, I will never do that. But then that anger just built up over years and years and years until it finally exploded in a horrible way when I committed one of my crimes. And it really was just, yeah, not knowing how to adapt and not knowing how to take care of myself. So kind of looking for people outside of me to take care of me while I was trying to take care of everyone else.

Kim 5:39

Well, I'm wondering, Jesse, because you in your book, which is the best part of prison, and I really enjoyed reading that, you are very open and honest and humble in sharing about your healing journey and what you learned. You talk about your childhood experience. And I'm just wondering, where did you find the motivation and the guidance to take this healing journey that you've been on when you, you know, you didn't have that kind of uh rehabilitative support at home, obviously not in prison. So, where did this come from for you?

Cocaine As A False Answer

Jesse 6:21

The motivation was pain. I was miserable. I was in pain and I felt like I was on fire and I would do anything I could to put that fire out. The guidance was a lot more complicated. It was just a cast of characters, it was books that I read, it was years of meditation, it was just being in the right place at the right time, both with people on the inside and connections I had on the outside, where I managed to make that relationship or that connection that allowed me to learn what I needed to learn and begin to, you know, walk down this path that I didn't even know was an option when I was growing up. And so what so what happens? So I find cocaine. And up to that point, I was smoking pot and doing hallucinogenics and drinking, and it wasn't good. It was it was definitely not healthy, but it wasn't disastrous. I found cocaine and it was like a light switch. I was 17. It was about three months before I committed my crimes. So I literally went from a kid who was taking a year off before college and like finding himself to a feral animal in a matter of three months. And it wasn't like, oh, I did cocaine for years. I did cocaine every day from when I started until the day I was arrested. There was no break, there was no like slow buildup. It was just like falling off a cliff. Wow.

Jason 7:26

Okay, so it was that fast for you. That's so then you you started doing the code and and this is through the same group of friends, or who introduced it to you?

Jesse 7:37

So I started working construction. I actually got in trouble at school, was allowed to graduate, but was basically like doing correspondence courses for high school, if that makes any sense. So I started working in in at 17 and I was doing construction. And the guy who picked me up and drove me to work every day was a coke dealer on the side. And so he gave me a taste and then started providing me and said, Oh, well, you know, when you cash your paycheck, I can help you out. And and I found that connection and then just continued to find connections as I got deeper into that world. Uh, and then found the few people from that world, as well as a few that I didn't know before, who wanted to go on that journey with me. Because some of the kids were just smoking pot and listening to music. We're like, No, no, I'm good. I don't want that. But some of the other kids said, Yeah, I want to go on this ride. This sounds fun. So I got collected into a smaller group of people who were probably more intensely in this life and more intensely paranoid and more intensely chasing that high.

Jason 8:21

What do you think it was that that allowed you to make that jump? And what were you kind of thinking about as you were in that three-month period?

Robbery, Shooting, Arrest Relief

Jesse 8:29

I think interestingly, it was the same thing that drove me to that healing journey. It was pain. I had been in pain since I was a kid and I didn't know how to fix that. And the first time I did cocaine, it felt like the answer. For that 15 minutes, I felt like I was smart enough, I was good enough, I was just fundamentally enough for the first time in my life. And I wanted to chase that feeling because it felt like what I'd been looking for ever since I was a kid. And it quickly got out of control. Yeah, it it solved that one problem for 15 minutes, but it created this whole host of other problems. And I became so addicted, so stuck on that chasing that feeling that I would do anything to get more. And in the beginning, that was just working harder, you know, going into savings. And then it was, I'm out of money, I'm out of options, I don't know what to do. And a buddy of mine, one of the guys I was hanging out and getting high with, said, Oh, we got this option. There are these people we can steal money from, and it won't hurt anybody because they're bad people. And we just created this fairy tale that we got to paint ourselves as somebody other than the villains, even though we were very much the villains.

Jason 9:21

So a lot of cognitive distortions. So that leads us to like the crime that got you incarcerated.

Jesse 9:28

Uh, I two separate crimes. There was a robbery and there's a shooting. We went to go break into this home because this guy said they would have a big bag of money because they stole money from all their employees, because they were these terrible people, which none of that may be true. I have no idea. But we broke into this home thinking there would be a bag of money. First of all, there was someone home, so it turned into a robbery. It was not just a breaking and entering. Uh, second of all, we didn't find a bag of money or no evidence of anything he said was true. So we broke into this home and stole half a bottle of liquor and a digital camera and some car keys and like traumatized this family and traumatized this maid that was there, just caused all this harm because we were so out of our minds, we didn't even realize what we were doing.

Jason 10:02

And you're still 17 or 18 at this point?

Jesse 10:04

I had turned 18 at that point. 18. And then, you know, we came back and we were kind of sullen. And I remember just sitting there and we were all hoping somebody else had found this bag of money or someone else had gotten a different outcome. And we were basically giving up. We thought it was over. And then I got a phone call from one other Coke dealer who I didn't already owe money to or I wasn't already in trouble with, who said, Oh, yeah, let's meet and let's talk. Managed to get a bunch of cocaine fronted to me. We had a big party. We were trying to pretend it was like back in the good old days, and one of the guys got a phone call. His girlfriend was at home, and these two guys were threatening his girlfriend, saying they were gonna hurt her, they were gonna hurt him if he didn't come back, if he didn't bring them money, if he didn't bring them a gun. There's a backstory that they had stolen a gun that they sold to him, that he sold to me. And the person they had stolen it from found out and was threatening to call the cops. And now they were threatening him and basically, you know, offering to make it go away if he paid them enough or gave them enough cocaine. Basically, they were as crazy as we were, out of their minds as we were. In that, having just committed the robbery, having really hated myself and just felt like the villain, I wanted to be the hero. So I got on the phone and we started talking back and forth, and we started yelling back and forth and got riled up, and we agreed to meet, and that was what led to the shooting.

Jason 11:09

The shooting. So there was a shooting that you were you were there, but you didn't pull the trigger.

Jesse 11:16

I did. There's a lot more detail in the book. I will keep this short for you. Basically, we got there, and in the moment I realized this is crazy. What am I doing here? And I left and they chased me. And so, as they were chasing me, and I'm scared, and they're like driving down the road next to me and trying to run me off the road and gesturing out the window. That was when I talked before about that anger building. That was the moment where I felt most afraid and I felt most angry. It felt like the anger from all those times I'd been like disrespected or bullied or just trampled on, all those times I'd forced it back down, came bursting up. And the moment that the passenger reached around behind him, like he was grabbing something, in my mind, my fear said he's grabbing a gun. And so I pulled the gun out of my pants and I just unloaded and shot into the car that was beside me, hit both of them. Uh, thankfully, like amazingly, they didn't die. Um, but they were both hospitalized or both seriously injured. And then I went home and we were arrested the next day.

Jason 12:05

So police show up at your house.

Jesse 12:07

The SWAT team came in in grand fashion. I ran right out of the door into the barrel of an assault rifle and someone yelling that he would shoot me dead. And that was, you know, at the time, what felt like the end of my story. But in a way, literally, when they put the handcuffs around my wrist, I felt a relief because I had been so out of my mind. I'd been causing so much harm. I'd been running and I didn't know how to stop. I didn't even believe I could stop. So I felt in that moment like someone had finally stopped me.

Jason 12:32

So the moment they put the handcuffs on you felt like a relief. That's really interesting because you just you were out of control and didn't know you didn't see a way out.

Jesse 12:42

I, you know, I remember my co-defendant said a couple days before, he said, Oh, I think I'm gonna stop doing drugs, I think I'm gonna stop doing cocaine. And I remember laughing at him and saying, You don't stop doing like nobody stops, you end up dead or in prison. That's what happens. And I really believe that to be true. I I'd grown up being told that, and I believed that if I started doing this, my dad had told me I'd end up dead or in prison. So I just believed I was on that path and I had to keep walking because there was no other option.

Jason 13:05

Do you think there was a way for you to have gotten help? Like, was there another universe where you were able to have an off-ramp before incarceration?

Jesse 13:14

I think, you know, when when I talk to, I get a lot of parents who reach out to me, I have kids who are kind of in the same state I was in. And what I tell them is they have to get away. And often in many cases, they have to get away from the family as well. But if they can get into a different environment, if they can get into a different space, the whole idea of like differential association, get around different people, get in a different environment, start doing different things, because that was essentially what I did in prison. It wouldn't matter what place that was, whether that was prison, that was another home, that was somewhere across the country. If I could get that safety and I could get that security, I could get that guidance, I think I would have ended up on a different path. But it's not always possible. And and I still, you know, I talk to parents all the time who are so worried about their kids. And the sad news is I can't guarantee that anything's gonna be different. Like I can work with them and we can plant those seeds, but they may not be ready to pick them up yet.

Sentenced To 32 Years

Jason 13:55

Jesse, so now you you're in handcuffs. What's what's the next part of your story?

Jesse 14:00

Uh was arrested, was charged, went through a whole debacle while I was in the jail. Uh, and then after pleading guilty of the crimes that I did commit, my lawyer said, You know, your guidelines call for between eight and 13 years. You're probably gonna get the midpoint of 10 years. And he did some really bad stuff, so you got to deal with this. And I reckoned with that. I thought that was okay. Like, okay, I did some bad stuff, I can deal with this. He also gave me a copy of uh Long Walk to Freedom, the Nelson Mandela book, where he said, Hey, this guy did nothing wrong and spent 30 years in prison, and you did something terrible, like you can do 10. And that was actually a really helpful way for me to see it and be like, okay, this is my step toward accountability. This is what I can do. The day of sentencing, I walked in and there was a motion to modify the sentencing guidelines that went from eight to 13 years to 10 and a half and 16 and a half years with a midpoint of 13 and a half. My lawyer told me not to object. He said, Look, I think we're better off because the judges see the old guidelines, you'll probably still get within that, you'll probably get that 10 years, you'll be fine. The judge sentenced me to serve 138 years with 106 suspended or an active sentence of 32 years.

Jason 14:56

32 years. So you're 18 years old and you're gonna get 32 years. Wait, wait, wait. Three, two. 32. I mean, tell tell us, forget what's going on, what's happening emotionally.

Jesse 15:09

It's uh it felt like a split because there was one part of me that was was indignant. Like, that's not fair, that's not what they said, that's not what it's supposed to be. I was only supposed to get 10 years, this isn't right. But the kind of like deeper part of me, that maybe the deeper wound that I've been running for my whole life, that had always said that there was something wrong with me or that I was not good enough or that it didn't belong, it felt like a validation of that. This person literally in robes, like elevated to this position to know all and teach all and said, and had judged me to not be worthy and to not be worthy of being in the world for more than 30 years.

Jason 15:40

You felt you deserved it.

Jesse 15:41

I did.

unknown 15:42

Okay.

Jason 15:43

And did that change over time?

Prison Healing Through Meditation And Service

Jesse 15:45

I struggled with that for a long time. Yeah, I talk a little bit in the book about at one point I didn't, I woke up and I didn't feel guilty all the time. And I then feel guilty about that because I thought it meant I wasn't repentant or I hadn't like, you know, paid for my, I was like giving myself permission to, you know, move on when I should be suffering. Like I should be feeling guilty every moment because isn't that what the people that I hurt need? And it took me a long time. It took a lot of you know, visits to the psychologist, it took a lot of meditation, it took a lot of work to finally realize that change was about like becoming a different person and amends was about doing different things, not just sitting around feeling sorry for myself or sitting around hating myself.

unknown 16:21

Okay.

Jason 16:22

But you didn't do 32 years.

Jesse 16:24

I did not. I did a lot of work while I was in prison, uh, both with psychologists. I was lucky to have a therapist on the outside. I called every week. I wrote a lot of articles, I did a lot of tutoring, I did a lot of mentoring. I went to college, got a bachelor's degree, became a journeyman electrician, helped start a pure sport mental health program. And all these things added up kind of on my prison resume to the point that after 19 years, the governor granted me a conditional pardon. So I walked in the counselor's office one day thinking I had 10 years left of my sentence. And hour and a half later, I was hugging my mom and walking out of prison.

Jason 16:51

How did the granting of the pardon come about?

Jesse 16:53

Did you apply for it? So I worked in the law library for five years. I always saw guys coming in trying these like latch diff efforts to appeal their sentences, to apply for a pardon. And for me, those guidelines, when they were modified 10 and a half to 16 and a half years, I didn't feel like I had any right to apply or even be considered until I had done the 16 and a half years. Because again, I felt like I deserved the 32 years, like this person had judged me, like there was something wrong with me. But after 16 and a half years, I said, okay, I'm gonna put this in and had no expectation that it would be granted, but I wanted to be able to sit and have the peace that I had done everything in my power to kind of like fight for my freedom and then I could do the rest of my time, not second guessing or looking over my shoulder. So it started as just like a simple thing, turned into a more than 300-page petition with letters of support and evidence and things I've done, finally submitted it, and two and a half years later, it came across the governor's desk and he decided to grant it.

Kim 17:42

So, Jesse, you talk a lot about acceptance as opposed to resignation in your book, acceptance that uh creates change. You you wrote that real change begins with acceptance and accountability. So, how did you come to understand that acceptance is not the same as giving up?

Jesse 18:02

Uh I had to give up. I had to collapse, I had to be defeated completely. And then in that space of having nothing left to lose and nothing left to cling on to, no, no illusion of control, I finally realized that I was free to make different decisions and follow a different path. And in that moment, both you know, when I was first arrested and when I was sentenced to 32 years and I didn't know how I was going to move forward, in each of those moments of collapse and surrender, I found this freedom to make a difference or follow a different path or do different things. And it really was the opposite. What I realized that the resignation was still hanging on to the belief in control or the illusion of control, because then I was feeling like I was powerless. But the reality was I could have just stopped chasing all those things and chosen a different direction.

Kim 18:44

One of the tools that you talk about that you learned is meditation. You said with meditation, I watched myself slowly become a different person. For me, meditation has been a powerful tool in coping with my trauma. And so I I love that you use that tool. And uh for for those who are listening who are living with you know constant fear and shame and or institutional stress, what would you say about the power of just learning to stay present?

Jesse 19:17

That it allowed me to become the person that I am. It's not like a magic pill. It didn't change me, but it gave me the space to stop reacting. My entire life had been reactive, just like one thing after another, like a ping-pong ball, bouncing back and forth. And meditation gave me the space to sit and see that I am not all of these emotions and all these fears and all these thoughts. I am witness to them. And as I experienced that, I realized that I have a freedom to not follow that impulse or not react with anger or not react with fear, but instead sit with those things and see what's actually underneath of them and choose the direction I'm going in rather than reacting.

Jason 19:50

When you were in handcuffs, you talk about it being a relief. Was it like that instant? Did you feel the shift in your whole being when you were like that to your wake-up call? You're in handcuffs, and now life's different. Like, were you still craving the cocaine? Did you still find ways to use? Was it instantaneous or was it a process?

Jesse 20:10

I I never had a single like uh movie moment where just there was a switch and everything was different. It was a series of like small wake-ups and then often like steps backward, like two steps forward, one step back, or two steps forward, 11 steps back. Um, but it was moving in that direction. And I would have those series of collapses, those series of changes. And my behavior was up and down over those years. You know, I stayed clean for a long time in prison, and at one point I started getting high again because I kind of fell into that place of resignation again. And then in that, I had another surrender. I had a day where I woke up and I wanted to kill myself. I didn't want to be there. And that was the surrender that allowed me to make the changes that really kind of finished that journey or got me to the finish line, at least in the prison part of my story. But what I realized is that doesn't ever end. We we don't ever stop wanting or fall trying to fall back on that default of control or illusion or whatever. And it's a constant force of coming back to the present, of coming back to what is, coming back to gratitude and just remembering that that that pattern is there, but we don't have to follow it.

Kim 21:06

You said that you said I could be defined by the temperature around me, or I could choose to set the temperature. Um, that feels like a life philosophy, bigger than just life in prison. So um how did you learn to become someone who sets the temperature rather than absorbs it?

Jesse 21:24

There were a series of things. I mean, there's a moment I talk about in the book, a really very terrible violent assault that I witnessed, and that that my job in prison was to ignore or to play off or make morbid jokes about. And that was a moment that it was really clear to me that I had to choose a different direction or I would become the person that I couldn't live with, that I couldn't accept. And so it was a lot of uh uncomfortable conversations, it was a lot of uncomfortable steps of being in a place of doing something that's against the tide. But also, it helped that I was not in a room full of like academics that I looked up to or I admired or room full of people that I wanted to be like. I was in a room full of people who had messed up just like I had. So it was a lower bar. I didn't feel the need to show up and impress people as I had when I was younger, when I was always trying to like gain some social status. And that allowed me to say, okay, I'm gonna do this thing. And like somebody won't like it, but I don't care what they say. Like, I don't need to pretend. I don't need to fit in. I don't need their admiration validation because for the first time in my life, I was able to give myself that validation.

Kim 22:18

So you write that prison is a good, good at warehousing humans, but not creating change. But you did a lot in prison to create change for yourself and others. You want to share some of the work that you did during your prison time?

Jesse 22:36

Sure. It started with, like I said, being on fire and trying to put myself out, trying to figure out a way to be in a little bit less pain or live in a way that was not causing pain to other people. That meant going to see the therapist, that meant meditation when I when I had the opportunity to be introduced to it. That meant reading, that meant studying, but it also meant helping. And I remember that the day this uh this guy, this giant of a man, came over me. I was sitting in my chair reading, and this giant walks up and leans over me and says, Hey, will you help me get my GED? This is like genuinely one of the scariest people I'd seen at that point. And by the end of that conversation, he was smiling and he had this like amazing young smile. They called him Big Baby because he looked like a kid when he smiled. And it made me realize, okay, like I had this opportunity. And over the period of teaching him for the GED, and he was teaching me to box, I began to feel this satisfaction and this connection with meaning that I had never felt before. And the day he got his GD, and then when he got to give the valedictorian speech, his family came to see him for the first time since been locked up. I felt such joy and such aliveness and such connection. I realized that was what I wanted to do. That all the kind of selfish chasing I'd done in the past hadn't gotten me anywhere. It'd just been a loop or hamster wheel I was running on. But that this thing, this being a part of something bigger than my health and helping other people, that was what I wanted to do. And that was what I continued to do for the rest of my time in prison.

Kim 23:50

And once you've gotten out as well. So that's a beautiful story. And I guess that was sort of step one in that turn for you.

Jason 23:58

And what ways did you help other people while you were incarcerated?

Jesse 24:02

So I tutored that individual. I continued to tutor other people for their GD, had a young man who actually is coming to do some work in my house, which is interesting. He's now out, um, but who wanted to go to college. Nobody in his family had ever gone to college. He didn't have the money to go to college. So we created kind of a mock college experience. We got someone who's willing to sponsor and buy him some books and we basically took him through a college experience for an associate's degree, but without any certifications or degrees. Like he didn't get any credit for this. So he was doing it because he wanted to see himself in a different way. He wanted to believe that he could learn. And he basically did a two-year associate's degree. He doesn't have anything to show for it except the fact that he now knows and believes that he can, that he belongs in that space, that he's just as smart and just as capable. And that was one that was really transformational because it made me realize that all those things that we chase, all those accolades, those are really irrelevant. Like the degree that I have from the university I went to, I don't care about that. If it burns up in a fire, I won't miss it. It was the change I saw in myself and the change I helped other people see in themselves. That was what really mattered. So I did that through tutoring, I did that through mentoring, helped start that pure sport mental health program, just helped in any way that I could. And in many cases, that was just holding space and treating people humanely or allowing them to exist in their entire humanity in a place that was often dehumanizing.

Jason 25:10

So, would you say that doing that work had multiple benefits, including changing you so that you're you feel stronger in your recovery and also making you more of a candidate for early release?

Jesse 25:25

I think it did. Now that wasn't my intention. At that point, I guess the freeing thing was because I had stopped chasing the outcome. You know, one of the things someone told me is that my job is to do the next right thing and let go of the result because I'm not in charge of the outcome. So I wasn't doing it thinking about anything in the future. I wasn't even thinking about the benefit for me. I was doing it because I said, hey, this is a thing that I can do right now, and it is the best of the options. It is the next right thing. And it led to a series of events where I became more connected with myself. I became happier, I became kind of a fuller person, and it did make me a candidate for a pardon. But you got to remember, up until the governor who pardoned me, who pardoned more people than every governor in the 20th century in Virginia, like it just wasn't a reality. Like three people would get one at the end of their term because they had made a convenient campaign donation. Like I didn't have anybody to give money. Like I wouldn't have had a chance had it not been for this particular governor at this particular moment in time, where he made sweeping reforms.

Kim 26:18

So the governor gave you a pardon, and at that point you had been incarcerated for how many years?

Jesse 26:25

19.

Pardon Day And Reentry After COVID

Kim 26:26

So talk about what that was like for you to learn about that and then to walk out into the free world again.

Jesse 26:35

Yeah. So I I woke up on August 16th of 2021, day like any other. I, you know, went and made a phone call, made my instant coffee, did my readings and meditation, just thought it was going to be another day in prison. And that afternoon, the counselor called me in the office and the speakerphone was off the rack and she said, Somebody wants to talk to you. And someone on the speakerphone said, Mr. Cross, are you sitting down? I thought it was a strange thing to say. Uh said, because you're leaving Coffeewood today. You've been granted a pardon. And it was just such an overwhelming shock because of all the things that could have been said in that office, I was thinking they were going to give me bad news about my family. You know, my father had died while I was in prison. I'd lost other loved ones. Like I was expecting bad news. I wasn't expecting to go home. And then going through that day in kind of a fugue state or just almost numb and overwhelmed of signing paperwork and getting things, and then seeing my mom for the first time in a year and a half because there were no visits during the entirety of COVID, and giving her a hug and walking out of prison. Like it just was something I didn't even know how to believe. And in some ways, I really didn't believe until that night when everyone went to sleep and I was sitting on the porch, and then that numbness finally kind of washed away. And I began to believe I was actually out of prison.

Jason 27:42

So the actually, that's you brought up an interesting point that the end of your time there was COVID, the end of when everything was locked down, right? August of 2021 was still a scary time. People were isolating. What was it like? Going back to Kim's question of like stepping out, but what's it like to step out into a world that has so radically changed, not only in the years since you went in, but uh now with COVID still a big thing that has changed things exponentially compared to what was happening before?

Jesse 28:16

I would have normally said that I felt like a time traveler, but because of COVID, I felt like a space explorer too. Like I'm going to an alien planet and walking into spaces and seeing people distancing and yelling at each other about masks, and it just was overwhelming. And it was so different because even though we had had COVID precautions or fear and we'd had people die while I was in prison, it felt like the world had kind of turned on itself. It almost felt like the zombie apocalypse. Not that there were zombies, but the way people reacted to the zombies, that same anger and fear and just chaos was everywhere I went. And I remember I didn't see people, I didn't go places uh until that first week they had a party. And I remember walking to this party, and all of a sudden there are people dancing like nothing's happening, and people are drinking and partying. And I was so confused to go from a world where nobody would stand within six feet of each other to go to a place where hundreds of people were just acting like it was 1999 and maybe the end of the world.

Kim 29:05

So talk about getting back on your feet once you got out. Share a little bit about that process for you.

Jesse 29:13

So I was incredibly lucky. This is part of the reason that I do the work that I do is I think it is a good thing, but it didn't necessarily come from a good place because it was survivor skilled. Because the day I walked out, there were people still in prison who would work just as hard as I had, who were just as good as I would, who just as deserving who didn't get that pardon. And I watched people on the outside who were just as deserving, who worked just as hard, but who didn't get those opportunities. And I had a place to go stay. And then I had literally had someone after being at my mother's house for a month and realizing I needed to get away, that some of the dynamics from the past were still there and I needed to kind of find a space. I literally had someone offer me a place to stay for free for six months who just said, Hey, I love your story. I have this place and I use it as a second chance shed and I want it to be your second chance. So I got a place to stay. And she wouldn't even let me pay the utility. She wouldn't let me support. She said, I want you to get on your feet. And I got jobs and I started working and I started exploring and I started making connections and I started doing social media because I was institutionalized and I did whatever somebody told me and somebody told me to do it, so I did. And I just started kind of feeling like I was taking up a little bit more space or kind of growing into myself. But it was difficult because I had to make a lot of choices and they were challenging. At one point, I had the opportunity to get a job that would have been a set structure and would have had benefits and would have had some potential advancement opportunity, though probably not much. Or I could take this 1099 job and have a lot more freedom. And one of the things that I'd learned while I was in prison was that I could make decisions that created more options for me, or I could make decisions that created fewer. And this one job offered stability, but it was really going to limit my options. Like I there wasn't going to be a lot I could do on the side, there wouldn't be a lot of growth, there wasn't going to be a lot of potential. So I chose to take the scary route and take the 1099 job and work on the side and figure out how to build something. And that led me to a place that I never imagined, but it was a really uncomfortable journey.

Kim 30:54

And you talk about replacing one coping mechanism with another, and how you one of the ways that you did that was this need to produce, this need to keep moving forward. You talk about how you just really hit the ground running and felt like you could just never stop. So how at this point do you distinguish growth from running? And what have you learned about resolving your pain instead of running to the coping mechanisms?

Jesse 31:25

It's a really good question. And that's really relevant in my life even today. I um I do a million things. I just started coaching someone who reached out who had some very specific issues, and I agreed that we were going to be each other's accountability partners. So my part of that is he keeps me accountable that every day at nine o'clock I set my alarm and I'm checking in. What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What is going on in my body? And that's just the beginning of a check-in because, you know, when I was meditating for two hours a day in prison, it was great. I felt very in touch all the time. And I get out to the world and I'm running, and it can be easy to fall into that pattern of just reacting or just chasing or just following. And I need those reminders to come back. So I have a lot more. I have a couple other accountability partners, I have a couple practices that bring me back into my body, whether that's meditation or whether that's just being out of nature. But it is a thing that I fall back into. It's a thing that I have to be accountable for, that I need help with, because if I don't, I will be working 16 hours a day and then wonder why at the end of the week I'm exhausted and I can't get out of bed.

Jason 32:18

I want to go back to something you said before. You called it survivor's guilt. I think hearing you say that, you know, makes me think about just when people are in the same circumstances and one person has it a little bit easier, but it's horrible for both, right? And it's like it's you start this comparison of how am I doing versus that person. And if you're worse off, you're comparing, well, how come I don't have what he has? And if you're better off, you have that survivor thing. Like there's it's a no-win. But I think what's really special is you actually acknowledging that and bringing it forward and giving credit to the fact that I understand that I had a level of privilege, but there are these other people that don't have that privilege. And it sounds like where we're headed is that you're doing things to help those folks as well. So you're not saying I got mine leaving the space and I'm going exiting the stage and not worrying about everybody else, but you're saying, hey, I got some benefits. How do I help other people get those same benefits?

Jesse 33:16

Yeah. And that's, you know, what I got out, I went to go speak at the General Assembly. I talked to local lawmakers. The first call I had was with a local lawmaker who didn't agree with me about anything, but who was kind of leading the charge in opposition to all the criminal justice reform. And I said, that's the person I need to talk to. Why am I talking to this echo chamber of people who agree with me? Let me go talk to the person who's on the other side, who also, despite our differences, like was a whole person, like had a whole human experience, had their own challenges, their own feelings. And so the first thing I did on the call was acknowledge that and say, is there anything we agree upon? Can we talk about this? Can we talk about where we're coming from? Because I believe we all want the same thing. We all want safety and community and we have the same desires. We go about them in different ways. But yeah, I continued and I started working locally and I had a really amazing opportunity where literally at a party, somebody changed my life because uh they started interviewing me basically and taking notes. And I thought this was very strange behavior for a random person I'd never met. Uh, they started asking me about social media and I had built a really big following at that point. And I told them about this job that I was applying for on the sixth round of interviews for this big national nonprofit that worked around criminal justice reform. And the next day I got an email early in the morning saying, don't take this job and here's why. And it was a bunch of reasons basically why that organization was a behemoth who wouldn't make significant change, and said, I believe that so much that I want you to start at 501c3 and I'll fund you. Pay yourself whatever they would have paid you and go do good in the world. And it was this unbelievable storybook event, which looking back like a lot of my life, both for better and worse, has been kind of an unbelievable storybook event. And it gave me the opportunity to start working and doing adult re-entry classes and eventually working at the juvenile detention center and working at a re-entry video game and doing all these different things where I'm trying to create the sport and opportunities for other people that I had because I want to see other people succeed. And this is what I found. So we were working with the adult population, doing some side projects, and the art teacher from the local detention center asked me to meet her, and five minutes into coffee was just in tears. And she said, Jesse, I need help. These kids are amazing, they're smart, they're curious, they're creative. And then they go home and within days or weeks, they get arrested or they shoot someone or they get shot themselves. Like they go back to that same environment and we need help. So we showed up and we did kind of a fact-finding mission and we started providing services. Like, hey, let's put opportunities in front of these kids. Let's connect them with resources, let's connect them with education. What we found was that wasn't really working because what the kids were telling me is, yeah, that's great, but that's not for someone like me, or I don't belong there, or someone like me couldn't get a job like that or go to that school. And I realized that a lot of the barriers were actually internal. They weren't just the exterior ones, but that the world had told these kids or shown these kids they didn't belong or that they weren't worthy. So a lot of the work became bringing in speakers and bringing in other people to help change that narrative in their own heads so that they could have that light switch flip on and realize, oh, maybe I could go to school or maybe I could work in that field, or maybe that really could be me starting my business and being successful because I want them to not only have the opportunities, but also have the belief they belong there.

Jason 36:05

You know, it's interesting that you talk about helping people just realize that they should be living up to their potential because a lot of people have a narrative in their head that was placed early that they're never going to amount to anything, that they need to stay in their lane. You know, I'm working with guys now who are in their 30s or 40s. Their first encounter with the legal system was when they were teens. And I had one guy I I talked with last week and I said to him, Did anyone ever tell you that you're never going to amount to anything? That you're just never going to do it. And he said, Oh, absolutely. And I looked at him and I said, Well, that's bullshit. You need to get that out of your thinking because you are still a young man and there's no limit to what you can do. So all this other stuff that you're trying to get involved, knock it off. Like nothing should limit you. And he said, Well, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't go to school. You know, I've been incarcerated. And I said, Why not? Why couldn't you go to school? Yeah, I can't afford it. Well, there might be some programs out there. You have to dream it, right? So is that part of the work that you're doing?

Jesse 37:12

Absolutely. There's a kid, I mean, he's a grown man at this point, but I still call him a kid, who got out after doing some juvenile time and a little bit of adult time, and nobody would give him a job. And he finally got a job at a tire shop, making minimum wage and doing, you know, backbreaking labor all day. But they were the only people to give him a job. So when we started talking to him about going to college, he was like, But that that I wouldn't belong there, I couldn't. But he also had this feeling of obligation to the tire shop that was not like, I mean, they weren't terrible, but they were not treating him particularly well. So we finally got him a full ride to Columbia University. And he was like, But I but I can't go. What about the tire shop? And we're like, please just go. And he graduates this year and he's going off, he's doing computer science and uh something else. I can't remember what. But he just like he's filling up his potential, he is like expanding into his whole self, and it's been really amazing to see that that's possible when people not only have the opportunities but also have the encouragement to believe that they belong there. That's a great story.

Jason 38:04

So you're doing you've got the 501c3 second chancer foundation, yeah. Foundation, you're doing that work, and then you wrote a book.

unknown 38:14

Okay.

Restorative Justice, Labels, Final Advice

Jesse 38:15

Yeah, check out the book, The Best Part of Prison. And then my day job, I am the program director for Central Virginia Community Justice, which is a restorative justice program in Charlottesville and Almiral that works with the courts, works with the community, and works in the Charlottesville City Schools.

Jason 38:29

In what way?

Jesse 38:30

So we are a court diversion program where we have taken cases as minor, quote unquote, as you know, property theft or minor property theft, and as serious as motor vehicle death or sexual harm. And if everyone chooses to participate, we have an alternative to uh either incarceration or alternative to conviction, which allows for the restorative process where we bring people together and focus on accountability, healing, and safety for the future. And we have a relationship with the courts, we we go and kind of like encourage more cases to come to us or talk to defense attorneys because we want the referrals to come for the defense attorneys so we know someone is willing to be accountable, rather than having the person who's been harmed or the survivor of crime being really excited about this process and then hearing the other person doesn't actually care. We have a program in the schools, it's been really amazing. It started as a pilot. We're now in our second full year and we're getting an expansion next year because there's a bill in Virginia that requires all schools to have restorative practices, but gives no money or no training for that to happen. So luckily we're in an area they've already invested and they've already allowed us to build a program. I'm not sure what's going to happen in the rest of the state. And then we're actually hiring right now for an outreach coordinator because we want to have more community involvement and we want this service to be available to more people in the community who may not know about it or who don't feel comfortable engaging with the criminal legal system or with the police.

Jason 39:41

So has there been anything that has um that's surprised you that's like more challenging than what you expected?

Jesse 39:48

Finding a practical way forward. I mean, this is this is kind of academic, but the idea of like pure RJ where there is no carrot and there is no stick, uh, we've we've found challenges with. Like when we get community referrals, we have people who are like, hey, I would love to engage in this process. And the person who's responsible for causing harm is like, wait, but you you can't arrest me or you can't punish me. Like, why would I do that? And there is a really powerful thing that often happens or happens a majority of the times for people, but it can be hard. And that's really where the storytelling comes in. And a lot of times it's showing people what the value of this program is, or people attacking the program and saying it's soft on crime and we shouldn't have it. So a lot of the work, and I'd say some of the hardest work is not actually the restorative process, it's the storytelling to the community about what it is, why it's important and the impact it can have.

Jason 40:29

Wait, so the person who causes harm is given the choice to go through this process, and they're saying, Why would I do it?

Jesse 40:38

So, in the criminal legal system, if someone has been charged with a crime and they're doing this for a dismissal, it's a very obvious reason. Oh, I do this and it gets dismissed. And that's the kind of carrot side of it. Um, if we do community referrals or even in the school, the kids or the community members say, Well, why? Well, like what's the reason? What are you threatening me with, or what do I get out of this? So, what we do is we we say what we generally get out of this is a greater sense of satisfaction, a greater sense of healing. We have past testimonials both from people who are responsible for harm as well as people who were harmed. But again, there's a lot of storytelling in that. And it can be hard to convince people who grew up believing in kind of a punitive system or believe, you know, they're living in the zero sum game to explain that this actually can be a part of the process that helps everyone.

Jason 41:18

Well, I think one of the things to acknowledge, even with restorative justice, is that going through that process as somebody who's harmed or has caused harm, somebody who has caused harm can be a very challenging, difficult process, right? I mean, it may make them a better person on the other side, may give them a sense of relief on the other side, but going through the journey and going through the process can be extremely challenging. So it's not, you know, when you say as an alternative to incarceration, it's not always easier than incarceration.

Jesse 41:51

We've had juveniles elect to go to jail rather than go through the process. They're like, wait, I'd have to see the person I did that. Oh no, just send me to jail. That sounds way easier. And so when people tell me it's not tough on crime or they're there we're being soft on criminals, I was like, hey, let me tell you a story about this kid who literally would rather go to jail than be accountable. And it kind of flips that switch in their head. They're like, well, maybe there is something to this.

Jason 42:10

Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely, because that is very hard. I mean, everybody wants to be the hero of their own story, and this makes you confront that. And if you can hold on, you know, if you can hold on to the belief that you didn't do anything wrong, it wasn't me. But as we all know on this call, going through a process and getting healing for everybody is extremely powerful for everybody, and that's how we stop the cycles.

Jesse 42:38

And that's, you know, when I interviewed for this job, uh, my goal or my kind of dream mission, if we could expand, would be to go into the juvenile detention center and not only hold circles there, but also every time a kid is going home, hold a circle in the family and hold a circle in the community. Because whether that person directly harmed their family or directly harmed their community to go to juvenile detention, there was harm that occurred there. And it it is often reciprocal. It's not usually just one way. And having that circle and that opportunity to heal for accountability and moving forward in a different direction is really what I want to see because so often, just like that art teacher said with the kids, it's just a cycle. And when they go back to that same environment with the same dynamics, the same things happen.

unknown 43:15

Yeah.

Jason 43:16

So we've talked about your day job in the program, your foundation. We've talked about your new home a little bit. Is there anything else that we major topics that we've missed? Is it time for Kim's final question, or do we have other things to add before that?

Jesse 43:33

I would just say I have been really grateful for the opportunity to speak and consult on projects in spaces that I never imagined. You know, I've been out to South by Southwest, I've consulted in prison systems, I've consulted in jails, I've been brought in to help staff learn from the lived experience what actually works or what is actually helpful, or why essentially being humane in their job is important. Because so often we're living in this kind of like dichotomous system where people are opposed and against each other, and we forget that we're all in the same team. Like we're all wanting the same things, and we can all work together. And that's one of the biggest issues that I see in addition to the kind of punitive nature of justice of the carceral system is putting people on opposite sides and saying, you're working towards opposite. It ends rather than saying, hey, how can we help each other? Like, how can we show up and actually make sure that people leave jail or leave prison better so they can become better neighbors and better members of our community and better coworkers? And so the opportunity to do that has been really amazing. I've been grateful for every time someone has invited me to one of those spaces, and often again, very unexpected spaces. Like I have a really good relationship with the chief of police, with the Commonwealth attorneys. Like I am in spaces that I didn't imagine I would ever be invited to, and I met with a hug or handshake rather than you know admonition or handcuffs.

Jason 44:40

Actually, before we go to the final question, Kim, I think Kim had mentioned to me, I didn't know this, but there was a short period. So your case involved firearms, it involved drugs. It didn't involve sex in any way, but you were put on the registry accidentally.

Jesse 44:56

I was told I would have to register. So apparently this happened in the Department of Corrections in mass. Uh, I got out, I was a few weeks out of prison. My probation officer texted me and then called me and said, Hey, I don't know what's going on. They're trying to get you to do something. I argued with my boss. I told them it's BS. They told me to shut up. Uh, but yeah, they want you to register. And I said, excuse me? Like, I'm already stressed, I'm already overwhelmed from getting out of prison. Now you're telling me this terrible. Like, what are you talking about? And so I said, Okay, well, it had to be a mistake. Like, but I'm freaking out. The woman I was dating, you know, thought it would be okay. But everyone we called just said, Oh, this is standard procedure. Don't worry about it. Like the former head of probation and parole for our area, we were like, hey, you could do something about this. Uh no, it just happens all the time. It's normal, it's just standard procedure. So everybody just told me I was gonna have to go register despite not having a sex offense. And I didn't understand this, and I was angry and I was scared. And when we talk about privilege, this is still another case where I had people that I could contact in the Department of Corrections, and because I had received a pardon, I was able to contact someone in the governor's office and say, hey, or actually, this was a new administration, but someone who was still uh in one of the secretary positions, and say, Hey, what's going on? And because of that, they were able to call. And I got a brief call saying, Oh, sorry, this was a mistake, and that's it. But like this period of not sleeping, of anxiety, of fear, of anger, of not knowing what's going on, just coming out of the blue and being told by everyone that that's standard procedure and imagining how many people went through that and didn't have someone they could call, or how many people ended up on the registry despite not having committed a crime, it just blew my mind.

Kim 46:24

I'm really glad that you were able to resolve that, Jesse. I'm sure that you know that for many people, that mistake is never corrected. And there are people who have to live on the registry for life with no path off, with no ability to redeem themselves. I know that you have compassion for that. What would you say to people who are still living under these labels that are created by bureaucratic mistakes, overly harsh sentencing or systems that no longer reflect who they actually are?

Jesse 46:59

I would say that if someone feels angry, I think that's healthy and it's natural. It also isn't gonna lead to a solution. So if you're gonna feel angry, which I think we naturally are, if you're gonna feel stuck, the question still is like, what can you do or what direction can you go in? And as I was sitting in prison, that's what I had to face. It's very different. And I put myself there, but I was around people who were innocent. I was around people who were exonerated while I was inside. What I consistently saw is everyone had the choice of how they were gonna do their time or how they were gonna live their life. And that if we allowed it to be a reaction to something outside of ourselves, we weren't actually free. That the only freedom we could have, regardless of whether we had done this to ourselves or it had been done unfairly, was to choose how we lived and to choose where we put our energy.

Jason 47:37

I mean, I liked what you just said, but I think in terms of just uh the whole registry, obviously your crime had nothing to do with the sex offense. So being on the registry is just absurd. Knowing that there are people that haven't is absurd. But uh, we are also you're talking to two people who believe that the registry shouldn't exist for anybody because it has done uh harm and it hasn't done any good and it doesn't help people heal and it doesn't make people more safe.

Kim 48:05

Yes. So, Jesse, you've already shared a great deal of insight and wisdom. But if you had one piece of advice for someone on a journey similar to yours, what would that be?

Jesse 48:17

You know, I often think if I could go back and talk to that 16-year-old kid that I was, or that 18-year-old kid that I was, first I would give him a hug because I know how bad he's hurting and he's not gonna ask for it or admit it, but he probably really needs that hug. I would encourage him to slow down, even stop and recognize that everything he's chasing, everything he's reacting to, everything he's running from, everything he's running toward is gonna be there tomorrow. And it's okay. And that if we can stop for just a moment and we can take literally a second of peace. I used to do this with people um in the mental health program. And I would say, can you stop for just a second? Literally, and then five seconds, and then 10. And as people started to see that they could stop the chaos, they could stop the running, they could stop the kind of monster in their heads, and they begin to feel that moment of freedom. So I would say just stop and slow down and make a choice rather than the reaction.

Kim 49:05

That's great advice. Thank you. And I do want to highly recommend Jesse's book, The Best Part of Prison. It's a really an inspirational read. And it's been a pleasure to have you with us here on Amplified Voices, Jesse. Thank you. Jason, you have any last thoughts before we wrap up?

Jason 49:24

Yeah, before I do my last thoughts, Jesse, is there anything you want to state how people could get in touch with you or your organization? Now's the time to share that.

Jesse 49:35

Sure. So Second Chancer Foundation is at Second Chancer, so chance with an R at the end.org, second hyphenchancer.org. Uh, my website, jessicrosen.com, for book information, for an email list, for speaking engagements. I'm on social media, I'm all over the place. And I want to hear from people. I want to connect with people because I'm always looking at how do we center the voices of those who you know don't often have a voice, just like you do with this podcast. And how do we look for solutions with people who are closest to the problem, but maybe farthest from the resources?

Jason 50:03

That's similar to a um Glenn uh what's his last name?

Jesse 50:06

Glenn Martin.

Jason 50:07

Glenn Martin quote. Yeah, we got to give him credit when we use this quote.

Jesse 50:10

That's true.

Jason 50:11

Uh so Glenn Martin, shout out to Glenn Martin. And then for um, when you say social media, where?

Jesse 50:17

TikTok on Instagram, on Facebook, on YouTube, uh Jesse Crosson or Second Chancer, that's chance with an R on all those platforms.

Jason 50:24

All right. So my final comment would be Jesse, thank you so much for being here today. It was uh pleasure to speak with you, get to know you a little bit. Your story is certainly inspirational. I'm looking forward to reading the book. I hope everybody who's listening reads it. You're a young guy still, so you've got plenty of years ahead to make a huge impact, in addition to the impact that you're already making, the lives you've touched, talking about young people, what an impact, how how good it is. So uh keep up the great work. I look forward to possibly collaborating with you on other projects, and thank you for being a guest today. And with that, I will say to Kim who's standing in forever. Until next time, Kim.

Outro 51:13

You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast listing the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. For more information, episodes, and podcast notes, visit amplifiedvoices.