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Amplified Voices
Amplified Voices is a podcast that lifts the voices of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Hosts Jason and Amber speak with real people in real communities to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Together, they explore shared humanity and real solutions for positive change.
Amplified Voices
Heather: What Teens Don't Know - Season 5 Episode 11
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What happens when turning 18 transforms a teenage relationship into a serious crime? In this conversation, Jason and Amber speak with Heather who shares her gut-wrenching journey through the criminal legal system.
With remarkable vulnerability, Heather reveals how a small-town teen romance led to an arrest warrant, interrogation by police, and eventually a plea deal resulting in four years in prison and ten years on the registry. The cruel irony? Shortly after her arrest, Indiana passed "Romeo and Juliet" laws that would have made her case a minor offense, but she couldn't benefit from them because she was charged months earlier.
The devastating ripple effects of her conviction touch every aspect of Heather's life. From navigating confusing and inconsistent probation and registry requirements that varied by county to the crushing shame that kept her isolated, Heather's story illuminates how our legal system fails young people. Despite these enormous obstacles, she built a remarkable life – earning two degrees, maintaining stable employment for 15 years, marrying, and raising two daughters.
Now 37 and five years removed from registry requirements, Heather still struggles with the psychological aftermath of her conviction. She avoids situations requiring background checks, limiting her involvement in her children's activities, and constantly fears judgment if people discover her past. Yet through therapy and growing advocacy work, she's finding her voice.
Heather's journey raises profound questions about proportionality in punishment, the purpose of registries, and whether our system truly allows for rehabilitation. Her message to others facing similar circumstances resonates with hope: "Keep fighting, keep going. Your story matters, your voice matters. You can go through traumatic, hard things and still make it out the other side."
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories, to have conversations with real people in real communities, a way to help them step into the power of their lived experience? Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.
Jason:Hello, welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices. I'm your host, Jason, here with my co-host, Amber. Good morning, Amber.
Amber:Good morning Jason.
Jason:Amber, today we have Heather with us. Hello, Heather.
Heather:Hello, good morning.
Jason:Heather, could you tell us a little bit about your life before you entered the criminal legal system and then tell us what brought you into it?
Heather:Yeah, let's see Before my life before. I will say first that I got into the criminal legal system at literally 18. So there wasn't a whole lot before that. So I grew up in Indiana with my dad. My dad was a single dad, my mother was an alcoholic. So it was my younger years were a bit rough and traumatic. My parents separated. When I was eight or nine I lived with my mom for a couple months until she went to rehab and then I ended up with my dad and then I stayed with my dad.
Jason:So do you have any siblings, or was this where you I?
Heather:do. I am an only child for my mom. My dad has two daughters, so I have an older sibling. She is about six years older than me, but we were never really close. She usually stayed, lived with her mom. She actually did live with my dad and I for a couple months, but it didn't go well.
Jason:But growing up and even though you had a sibling, it was really it was an only child experience.
Heather:Correct. Yeah, it was just my dad and I. And then I do have a younger sibling. She actually just turned 18. Younger sibling, she actually just turned 18. Wow, so that's a big age gap, yeah, yeah, so my dad ended up getting remarried when I was 17, 18.
Jason:Okay, All right, so you're at home. So, basically, your younger sibling wasn't alive at the time of your conviction and you're growing up in this home. That had some instability. What were you interested in?
Heather:Yeah, when I was younger like fourth, fifth grade I was bullied a lot. So because I was still living with my mom, she would literally come to the school and drunk and pick me up and the kids caught on to it. It was not a good situation. She actually pulled me out, I think three weeks before the school year ended Now, once I got with my dad. So once I moved in with my dad, I started the sixth grade at a new school and during that time and on I felt like other than not having my mother there. I had a relatively normal childhood. I had a lot of friends. I got along with pretty much everyone. The town that I pretty much grew up in was pretty small. I think our graduating class was like less than a hundred, so we were pretty tight knit.
Jason:So you were with the same group from sixth grade to 12th grade and you knew everybody.
Amber:Yeah, and what were your activities or hobbies? What were your interests?
Heather:I'm laughing because TV, I loved my TV shows. I wouldn't go out after seven or eight, like I was really into the CW Gilmore Girls, like I had a set schedule. I was like, okay, I'm going to go to school, I get off, I have to watch this at five, this at six. Now, as I got a bit older, so once I could drive and I had more freedom, like I would be like my friends and I don't even remember what we would do, like we would just drive around.
Amber:You just did teenage things. I just have to say everybody loved Gilmore Girls, so let's go.
Jason:How old are you? I'm trying to place how old are you now?
Heather:I am 37. I just turned 37. Yeah, I don't really. I didn't play sports, I wasn't really into sports, I don't know, I can't even it's. I feel like I'm old. I know I'm not really old, but I don't even really remember what I was into other than just hanging out with my friends, going to school, riding around, going to the creek.
Jason:It seems from sixth grade on it seems like pretty stable family situations. From sixth grade on it seems like pretty stable family situations.
Heather:Other than my mother. Yeah, so my mom and I's relationship. She moved to Indianapolis. I stayed with my dad, but it was very much up and down. I would go visit her, but she was still an active addiction. She actually passed away four years ago. Oh, I'm so sorry, thank you. Yeah, so, other than, like my home life was good, I mean other than having a single dad but I was still missing a mother figure and my mom actually ended up. I can't remember why, but she ended up in jail a couple of times. It may have been over child support. So when we lived in the town that we lived in, she actually ended up in jail there and I would walk from the middle school to the jail to visit my mom. So you see, it was not necessarily a normal childhood. What was your feeling about your mother?
Jason:Did you feel? What were you? What was your feeling? What was your feeling about your mother? Did you feel a responsibility?
Heather:Oh, 1000%.
Jason:And could you describe what that was, what that meant for you?
Heather:So what it looked like and meant for me was I took on the role of the parent. Even growing up like my dad was very. He went to work every day, he was home every night. He never brought anyone home, he never had alcohol in the house. But emotionally I mean.
Amber:Yeah, he had his own journey of dealing with all of the things and different ways of doing it right.
Heather:Yes, exactly, and so with my mom. So growing up, I was very responsible, I felt very responsible. I was highly sensitive. I was a very highly sensitive child I still am as an adult and so I feel like I learned to be quiet. I mean, I had anxiety I should also mention this as early as probably seven I remember having a panic attack, and so I learned to be quiet, keep my emotions to myself and just handle everything on my own.
Jason:Okay, so we got the picture. Now you're moving along, you're in school, things are going well, you've got friends. You're going through the school system. You're probably thinking about college. You know you've got some issues, but overall things seem like they're pretty good.
Amber:Yes, so what happens?
Heather:next Heather. So I, at this point, am a senior in high school and I'm 17 and probably and I'm 17 and probably oh, it's been so long ago was probably February At some point in the school year. I now again. We live in a small town. It's a small high school. We were all kind of friends from freshman, sophomore, junior. We all mingled.
Heather:I ended up meeting a boy at a party and I guess I should also say I had never really been in a relationship, I never really had a boyfriend. Not that I wasn't interested, I had crushes. But I was also very shy, also a little mean, like, when it comes to like boys. And I meet a boy and we at first, like he would say hi to me in the hallways and I'm like hi, and me and my friends were just like laugh, we're like okay, he was a freshman and I'm a senior. Like okay, he was a freshman and I'm a senior. So I think he was 14, 15. Yes, he was 14. I was 17. We ended up dating. We had mutual friends. I remember one night, clear as day, him asking me if I would be his girlfriend and I'm like okay, I don't even know what that means at that point, and yeah, that's how that started. We dated for six months during that time.
Jason:I'm sorry. So, Heather, you're in a school system where it goes freshmen to seniors, so you're in the same. Were you in any of the same classes? How did you? How'd you actually get to know each other, or did you just go? Oh, I like that senior over there.
Heather:We lived on the same street, yeah, so I was at one end, he was at the other, and again we had, when I say, parties, little house parties, he would just, in fact they were usually my friends and he would end up being there. So like we would talk at these parties and then, like after school, I had, I think, one of my best friends, I don't think she was a freshman, I think she was a sophomore, so anyways, like we would just see each other at these.
Amber:Well, I have to say we live. We live in a small town that actually has 3,500 residents and our entire school K-8, has 352 students. So I can see the picture that you're painting. You're just in a peer group because everything is so small, Everybody's together, Nobody is like really concerned all that much with because, again, this is like an overall peer group.
Heather:Exactly concerned all that much with, because, again, this is like an overall peer group, exactly. So we start dating and we're spending every day together after school um, you know, like he would walk down to my house, or I would walk down to his house um watch a little Gilmore.
Heather:Yeah, and I met his parents. We would have they would have like family, like game night, I think on Fridays or the weekends, like I would go over there. He met my dad and yeah, I mean it was. It did turn sexual before I turned 18. It did turn sexual before I turned 18. And then the day of my 18th birthday, we were supposed to go, I think, to the zoo or somewhere, I don't know. We were together somewhere and his mom called him and said hey, where are you guys at? I think, can you come home? And this is literally the day of my 18th birthday. And we take him back home and his mom comes out and she is talking to me on the front porch and she's hey, I think that this is getting too serious too quickly and we want you guys to still be friends, but we don't think that you should be dating right now.
Amber:And I'm like just shock and thus begins Sorry, this is when I get emotional. This is okay, take the time you need. This is when I get emotional.
Heather:This is okay, take the time you need. So it was pretty shocking and I'm just kind of what is happening? And we, at that point, we are like inseparable, this has become my first love, essentially, um, um, I mean my first everything. So you know, she says that and I'm like, okay, we can still be friends. That's not really what she meant. So I'm 18. That's my 18th birthday. I think both of our birthdays are in the same month. So I think two or three weeks later he turned 15. So I'm now 18. He's 15. During and this was the summertime, so I had just graduated we did not listen, okay, we were like like most people at that age, are like no, we're so in love.
Amber:Like, yes, you can't keep us apart, like all of that yes, so which it doesn't feel surprising.
Heather:So that's exactly what happened. We snuck around, we continued to see each other and during that summer Again, we live in a small town he had some family on the police force. This family member comes to my home and advises me that I am now 18 and I could legally get in trouble for having a relationship with him. And I'm like what? I don't even, I didn't even know at this point. I'm like I'm 18. I've never met, been in trouble with the law. I mean, I've never. I'm naive, I don't know. And so I had no clue, I didn't know anything about that kind of stuff. And we go through the summer, we're still sneaking out and seeing each other. And then at the end of the summer his parents did find out and so I was at his house at that point and they caught us. Now we weren't doing anything like that, we were just sitting there talking and I remember like leaving. And after that point, the next day, the next morning, this was like the end of August.
Heather:I guess I should say that my dad also moved. So pretty much when I turned 18, my dad was building a house actually in our hometown, and so he ended up moving and I was living on my own, still in the same little town. I had my own little apartment because I was going to go to college and all of that. So it's literally just me. None of my family is here. So the police get involved. They asked me to come down to the police station and I'm like okay. And still in my teenage mind I'm like, okay, sure, I'll go talk to y'all. So I go to the police station and it is a room full of men. There's not one woman in there. There's, I think, two detectives, three police officers. They read me my rights at that point, of course, I don't remember everything. It was very traumatic for me because I'm just spilling my guts. I don't feel like I have anything behind.
Amber:You've never had an interaction with the criminal legal system. The way that you have perceived law enforcement is that they're there to help you correct and if you are truthful and you are cooperative, then everything is going to turn out okay and during this uh, that's not what is the interrogation.
Heather:Yes, that's exactly what it is. They're asking me very detailed, very personal, intimate questions and I'm like I'm just telling the truth, okay, and so I just say everything, and they're like, okay, and they let me go you mean, they let you leave, they let me leave, okay me leaves and they're like you are to have no contact with, so, and then I'm like, okay, and I go back to my apartment and at this point I am distraught.
Heather:I have no clue like what to do, where to go, how to move on from this, and I spiral out of control. At this point I am, I think, without knowing it, like I'm trying to destroy myself at this point and I'm like I'm just devastated. And I remember just like the feeling that I felt, like I literally felt like I was dying. I was like I don't know what to do. And then I'm being interrogated and I have no clue. I don't know, like what to do with myself. I have there was no therapy. No, and even before this I mean, I had again like severe anxiety things with my mom. I should have been probably in therapy. I should have been.
Amber:There could have been some interventions Correct May have been useful in therapy I should have been. There could have been some interventions Correct May have been useful to moving you Exactly.
Heather:Yes. So the months are going by. I eventually move to the next state over. It's like right across the line, and it was let's see, august, september, october, november, december, four months later. It was let's see August, september, october, november, december, four months later. And I now move out of Indiana, I'll just say, into Ohio, and I'm driving one night and I get pulled over.
Heather:Okay, for I don't. I think a taillight was out, I can't even remember at this point. So I get pulled over and the officer comes up to my car and he's licensed the registration. I'm like here you go. And he comes back and he was like can you please step out of the car? And I'm like, okay. So I step out of the car and he's like put your hands behind your back. I'm like, okay. He's like do you have a warrant for your arrest out of Indiana car? And he's left your hands behind your back. I'm like, okay, he's, do you have a warrant for your arrest out of Indiana? Are you aware? Then I'm like, no, like I, I have no idea. And he was like and he tells me, and I'm at this point, just what is going on.
Heather:So they had charged me with sexual misconduct with a minor as a Class C felony. So I am taken to the jail in Ohio and I am put into the system, stripped. All of this Now, because I can't remember exactly. I know it was due to my age. It may have been the nature of the crime itself as well, but at that point I was put on suicide watch. I was not suicidal. I did not say that I was suicidal. So they like put me in this like big suit. It was like blue, I think. I'm not even sure they gave me toilet paper for three days. No, they did. It was like three days like I'm in the cell by myself On to a side watch. They eventually let me out until the regular population and I'm there for two weeks.
Amber:Heather, first of all, I just want to take a quick pause to hold some space for what you've just shared with us. So what you just shared with us was that you had moved. You get pulled over for some very normal sort of interaction. Oh, your tail lights out this and that, and next thing you know you are learning months later that there is a warrant for your arrest and that quickly sweeps you up into a system you're not familiar with in a way that is very traumatizing, and when you get there, you're not saying any of these things, but but you're continually being isolated, and so that experience had to be a lot for you.
Amber:Am I characterizing that correctly? Who have been in some sort of situation like this? This is something that people don't know about, with this sort of nature of the crime or the age of the person, that people are often isolated for their safety and people can't see my air quotes, but I'm putting up my air quotes in a way that is very traumatic and harmful. I just want to hold space for that and say I'm sorry that happened to you, because it's really pulling on my heartstrings as you're telling this story.
Jason:And I think the idea of the suicide watch is pretty common when people are arrested. It went a little extreme in your case with the putting you in special clothing, but I've heard others share a similar story of this. Is what happens.
Amber:Yeah.
Jason:Yeah.
Amber:So thank you for sharing that so our listeners can hear a little bit of what happens. So this is happening to you're in. You're in this jail. They're putting you on suicide watch. What is going through your mind in terms of what you, what to do next? Are you thinking about, like, how to reach out to somebody who can help you? Walk us through that a little bit.
Heather:I wish I could. I honestly don't remember, right. I think that I have either blocked it out or I really I don't think I was like, I was just like trying to make it through every hour. I'm just like, okay, whatever's next, whatever is next, I know I did. I think I was able to call my dad and at that point you can't, we couldn't do anything because they did let me know, you're going to stay here until we can extradite you back to Indiana.
Jason:So so it was Ohio. It's Ohio. The warrant was in Indiana. Ohio is the arresting officer, but they're not going to process you. They're going to send you back to back for Indiana to deal with you.
Heather:That is correct, yes.
Jason:Okay, and then how long were you in Ohio? And then when do you get them back?
Heather:Two weeks. I was there for two weeks until Indiana came and picked me up and transferred me back over there.
Jason:And those two weeks you're by yourself in a cell, or you?
Heather:No, so I was only in the cell, I think, for three or four days, until they let me out, until the general population.
Jason:And you look like you popped off of the Gilmore Girls. I mean, you have that same look. I can only imagine when you were so much younger being put into that environment. What was that like?
Heather:Scary put into that environment. What was that like Scary? But also I was very like quiet and I do remember I didn't come out of my cell. I did have a cell mate, but again it was a long time ago and I don't she must've been fine, I didn't. I didn't feel, oh, I just kind of stayed to myself. I didn't feel, oh, I just kind of stayed to myself. I just I do remember staying in the cell, not going out very often, like only going out to shower. I didn't really talk to anyone, I just was like let me just stay here and yeah, yeah.
Amber:So you eventually are extradited back to Indiana to face these charges that are levied against you. And let me ask you during that time, were you aware it was their media coverage of this? Let's talk about a little bit of that, because that sometimes comes into play.
Heather:No, there was no media coverage. There was no nothing. That's great.
Jason:Yes, that's good.
Amber:Okay, so you find yourself back in Indiana?
Heather:Yes, because we want to make sure that we're leaving time for what comes after. How do you get from here's the charges? What sort of time period progresses until you find yourself either in court or working with a lawyer for resolution of the case? Extra guided back, and I think it was just a couple of days before I went before the judge for them to like officially remove my charge and then my bond was set and I think it was like $1,000. Maybe I don't know we had to pay like $1,000.
Heather:So, whatever that comes to, I think I was maybe there a week and a half to two weeks total. So I get out on bond and I am given a public defender because, well, I don't have any money to get a lawyer. So I get a public defender, I get out and I'm going back and forth, I'm meeting with him. I honestly can't even remember our first meeting because I think even at that point I'm still like in my brain like this cannot be happening, like this doesn't make any sense. It was 2007 at this point, because I was arrested in December. I do remember meeting with my lawyer and going over everything and I'm like take it to trial. I'm not like, even though I have no clue what I'm doing.
Amber:Right, because that's, that's what we see in the media, I'm going to take it to trial. I'm going to do this and this is going to be the best thing for me, not knowing like some of the levers of the system that make that advisable or inadvisable, all of those things.
Heather:So during this time I think it's important to note so in 2000, I think they started it prior, but in 2007 in Indiana they did create the Romeo and Juliet like law, which was literally my case. Less than four years we were in a consenting relationship. I'm not, however, because I was charged in 2006, and actually my paperwork states the date of the offense is literally on my birthday. I could not be grandfathered into that clause, so there really was apparently, from what I was understanding from the lawyer, that there was no real defense against the case.
Jason:So I want to underscore so they've essentially changed the law in your state to say that what you did is not illegal, is not an offense.
Heather:It is an offense.
Jason:Okay, it's a lower offense. It's a lower offense, it's a lower offense and you have.
Heather:I don't how do I explain it? So, yes, it is still. You can still be charged, but I think it's like a misdemeanor and you can. Your defense is hey, there's a four year age difference. It was consensual this and this.
Jason:So you? You fell under the guidelines of this new law, which would make it a lesser charge. The all of the collateral consequences would be lessened and, because of timing, you were not able to take advantage of the new law that was literally on the books and going into effect as you were being processed by the system.
Amber:Correct, and so I. So this is a situation where society looks at what is normative behavior, and why do we have so many people who are being like affected by this, and does this make sense? Are we actually treating these sorts of things in the ways that we treat, to be frank, other crimes? So if somebody shoplifts or whatnot, they're not treated in the same fashion as if they were like committing corporate fraud and defrauding people out of their entire, like retirements in to the tune of like millions of people. That's not treated in a similar fashion, but somehow, when we think about these sorts of topics, reason goes out the window. So, heather, thank you so much for sharing that. And so you're trying to resolve the case and your lawyer is advising you. You know what, heather? There's no defense here. So what does the lawyer advise you to do?
Heather:Essentially take a plea deal, but we don't get that far because at this point I am spiraling out of control. I am in a legal system I don't understand. I'm still 18, almost 19. I'm still living far away from my family. I still, at this point, have had no. Hey, you should probably be in therapy. Hey, we should probably do this. I start drinking, I start using substances and nothing like hard, but you know, I am just essentially out of control.
Amber:You're coping in extremely unhealthy ways that are exacerbating the situation, correct?
Heather:So a couple months later I get in trouble again. I have with two other people and I don't know if I want to go into it or if I should. It has nothing to do with the other situation, but we do get in trouble, serious. We were out one night drinking smoking and again I was over in Indiana. At this point I was still living in Ohio, but most of my friends were still in Indiana and we're in an abandoned house and things get out of control and a fire starts and we leave and I get charged with arson. So now I have two pending charges and I am it's so hard to even now telling the story it almost feels I'm not even telling my own story.
Amber:It feels like I'm talking about somebody else because this is not who I know myself to be Correct, it's so far removed from even.
Heather:Obviously I'm much older now, a little bit wiser. Even then I was still very like. Most of my core values are still the same.
Jason:Earlier, you described yourself, Heather, as somebody who is following the rules, trying to keep it all together and all of that. So now something's happened. You've seen the criminal legal system from the inside. You see that things are dysfunctional and you're trying to escape. It sounds like.
Heather:Yeah.
Jason:We've talked about substance use with your mother and now it's like maybe there's something going on there, but again, you don't really you have never had a chance to process any of it. Do you think that you would have been in this situation where the arson happened if you hadn't been arrested in the first place? Would you have been in that situation?
Heather:No.
Amber:And so this is just something again shows us when we look at things and we try to prevent or address harm in a way that is disproportionate to what has happened, it causes more problems and more harm, and so I think it's really brave for you to share that and obviously, looking back on it like one can make those connections. But when you are an 18 year old child with not full frontal lobe development and whatnot, when I was 18, I was doing things that were probably ill-advised. Right, the idea that having to hold all of this criminal legal system involvement for something that was in your social group again not taking away from any harm that could have been caused because of that situation, but also the proportionality here is just out of whack, and so I think I just want to thank you for sharing that, because this is something that people don't realize and it is the entire reason that we started to move forward and look at evaluation and really look at the mental health aspect for.
Jason:Heather instead of doing this, then she would not have been in a situation where there was more harm caused down the road and that exacerbated her own situation but also potentially hurting other people in the process. So it was a multiplier of harms that the system contributed to, a multiplier of harms that the system contributed to.
Amber:So now you find yourself in a situation You've got these two charges. It's all very overwhelming. We have addiction issues. What do you do next, Heather?
Heather:I go to jail is what I do next. I actually, after that had happened, I was not arrested, I think, for another two or three months. At that point, when I get arrested, I know that I'm in it deep, like I have the awareness like uh-oh, you're like I'm done here. I'm done here, yeah, and in a way at that, at that point it's OK. At that point, like I know that, that, like that, like it was either that or I don't know what else was going to happen, like I was not in a good place. And so you know, when I get arrested the second time, I'm like okay. And so you know, when I get arrested the second time, I'm like okay.
Heather:So it's hard for me to talk about right now because there is still a lot of shame and guilt and embarrassment. It's also mixed with grief because I was so young, you know, I wish that I would have been protected. I mean, I wish I would have had a chance, I wish I would have had someone. And I will say I do feel like I need to say this, like I do feel like I need to say this Like my family was very supportive. They wanted to do more, so before I got in trouble. The second time they would be like please let me come to your court dates. What do you need? What do you need? Do you need help?
Heather:But I was so ashamed and I was like you are not going to step into that courtroom and listen to what was graphic when I'm talking graphic. Did he insert his into your? That is the kind of language they use. I don't want my family to hear that You're literally talking about my first sexual experience. I was very closed off. I was very like I am going to do this on my own, I'm going to figure it out on my own, and I don't like I love you, but and it was a form of protecting them as well. So I think that's why it's still very difficult to talk about, because I still carry a lot of that same, of course, that shame and my guilt and I don't know, heather.
Jason:I can't let you continue right yet. We need to stop for one for a moment, and I want to acknowledge what you said and, amber, I'm sure we'll want to add on some thoughts, but what I will say to you, this is what you're doing today and coming forward and talking about it. It's a new part of your story that is helping other people. That's something for you to be proud of. You're coming forward and sharing authentically things that aren't talked about, that people just bury down and they live with and, hopefully, just by coming here and talking about it, somebody else is listening to this and getting some relief in their life, and that's something that you should feel proud of.
Amber:So, thank you and I appreciate you and I want you to know that, amber, I'm sure you want to add on. It is a hope and an invitation that you would feel good about coming here today, but also making space for the fact that this is hard. We get feedback from this show. All the time that I listened to so-and-so story and I didn't feel alone. And if one person feels that way, then we're all moving things ahead and we're all moving things ahead. So, with that, in the interest of moving the story along, what happens with all of these things? Do they enjoin the cases? What happens from the legal standpoint?
Heather:So, from the legal standpoint, what ended up happening was I took a plea deal. It took about five, four or five months. We're like going back and forth and they are like, hey, with these two charges, like you are looking, if they convict you of both of these, at 10 plus years in prison. And.
Heather:I'm like okay. So I ended up taking a plea deal. I was charged with both of the charges and I also had to register as a sex offender. This one gets a little. Even now I'm still researching, trying to figure out how all of this happens. So from what I understand, there was nothing in there that said because of that charge I had to register. It was under the discretion of the judge. From my understanding, I was never given a psychological evaluation. I was never given anything. There was nothing. But they did put in there that with this plea deal you have to register as a sex hunter. And I'm not even really sure I knew that I would have to register for 10 years. And then I'm like okay, and then that's it yeah.
Amber:So I think you're bringing up something that is important for the audience to understand and also is very complicated and many people in the legal field barely understand is that the only way that a judge can be given discretion to say whether or not a person can register is if it appears in the state statute that the judge is given discretion in XYZ situations.
Amber:So that often does apply to those situations that involve juveniles, and the reason for that is that registration is a civil regulation that is not part of a person's sentence. So it really is not incumbent upon the judge to say someone does or doesn't register. Somebody can be convicted of something that is not a registrable offense at the time that they were convicted and then it becomes a registrable offense later. So it's a very complex area of this combination of civil regulations that really masquerade as like criminal penalties and it's very difficult to understand. So it's not surprising that you may not have known any of that as an 18, 19 year old kid, and often there are some judges that don't even realize that's not in their power. It's not surprising, it was confusing. So you take the plea deal. You have to register. Now are you incarcerated? What does the sentence look like?
Heather:So the sentence looks like eight years probation for the sexual misconduct with registration, the sexual misconduct with registration and for the arson charge it was eight years due for in prison, with an additional four years probation to run concurrent.
Jason:So at the same time, so wait, if we do that. So going forward, it's going to be eight years incarcerated.
Amber:Well, four. Four because four suspended yes correct.
Heather:Thank you With the probation.
Jason:So four years. So you're going to be in prison for four years and then, coming out, you're going to be on probation for eight years and when you come out, you're going to be on the registry for 10.
Heather:Correct. Okay, that is correct, yep.
Jason:Okay, so you did all that.
Heather:I did. I spent three years in prison. I got a year off of my sentence by participating in different classes and courses. I got out in July of 2010, and I was going to live with my dad and his wife and my little sister. That was the plan. However, in their county, the registration laws were much more strict. They were like I had to be inside by 10 pm, and actually I will say this too, because when I went to register in the county that my dad lives in, it was a woman, it was a sheriff, that was. I don't want to say that I've been lucky throughout this journey.
Amber:You can say where you saw light.
Heather:I saw light a lot I will say, For the majority of the part, I was treated with compassion. Most people that I interacted with were like what are you doing?
Amber:here. Why was this initial thing and the thing that you're registering for a crime? Because right now in our state it is a ticket.
Heather:Yeah, yeah. So I go to register there and she's I am so sorry Like I. She was like giving me these roles and if you get into a relationship you have to tell someone that you know that you're on the registry. And if you get into a relationship, you have to tell someone that you're on the registry. And then also I learned that it's public and my sister is probably at this point like three or four. And now the shame is like coming back and I'm like, oh, my gosh, okay, I'm going to have to live in this house with my dad and all these people are going to know I'm on the registry and I'm like I can't do that, I cannot do that.
Heather:And I did eventually move, even though my dad was like, please do not do that. Now I was lucky. I had a job as soon as I got out with family, but that was in Ohio. So in order to work there, I was like I can't drive three hours every day. So I moved back to Indiana, the county that I was convicted in, and it was about a 45-minute drive from my job in Ohio. So I moved back there. I moved in with some friends and there my probation rules I did not have any of the restrictions that I guess a sex offender would have.
Amber:You're mentioning different probation rules and registry rules. So I just want to ask you a couple of things about that Probation being on special sort of probation. Conditions that only apply to individuals who have to register yes, and what is required by the registry itself are separate. So when you're saying like I had a curfew, I had to do this and I had to do that, those were probation restrictions or those were required by the registry.
Heather:Those were required by the probation restrictions in that specific county.
Amber:Correct. So just to be clear, you're navigating all of these different rules and systems that are one way in this spot and then you go to a different spot. It's completely different. Describe to us like how that felt trying to navigate and understand all of that it felt confusing, it felt overwhelming, it didn't make sense.
Heather:It still doesn't make sense. It's like a really. It's just it's not impossible, because here I sit 20 years later and I've done really well, but they make it almost impossible. It's confusing. Everything is different. It depends on where you're at, it depends on who you talk to.
Jason:So now you're on the registry at this point and you're being told you have to report any type of relationship. What did that do to your mindset, to your dating habits? Anything?
Heather:So not a whole lot, because at that point that was only in the county that my dad was living in and I was only there for about two months before moving to the new county, the county that I was originally charged in. So when I go to the county that I'm originally charged in, none of those probation rules were the same. I had very generic general probation rules and in fact this goes to show how confusing it is and can be when I moved back to the county in Indiana where I originally was charged I'll never forget it I started back into college. I was in a relationship at this point and I was on probation and I had two officers who probation they weren't probation officers, they were police officers come to my home and do like a check-in. I let them in and they see my computer open and they're like you are on the registry, you're not allowed to have that. You're not supposed to be on the computer, like all of the.
Heather:And I'm like at this point I'm not as terrified because I've been in prison for three years, I've learned a little bit and I'm like no, I read my probation rules top to bottom. In fact they're right over there. I'm like I'm allowed to have this. There's nothing. But they they scared me a bit because they were like yeah, we're going to go back and we're going to double check and if we find out that you're wrong, you're going back to jail. It was terrifying.
Amber:That does sound very terrifying, heather, and you also mentioned something that it's also difficult to wade through and a lot of people who are required to register are unaware of. You had no obligation to let those police officers in your home we're checking to make sure that you live here but you opened the door which you didn't know any better to do. Right, just because you are required to register does not mean that you have no rights, but they make you feel as if you are not entitled to any of them. So that's why oftentimes, people are just like I'm going to stay quiet, I'm going to do whatever they say, I'm going to comply. So you're navigating these probation systems, you're navigating what it means to be on the registry. You do have a job, which is a really positive thing, and so let's talk a little bit about, like, the re-entry portion of your story and some of the challenges, joys, all of those things that you might have encountered along the way. Yeah, absolutely.
Heather:So I get out and at this point I'm what? 20, 22. And I am determined, honey. I am like Still only 22. I know, but I am like, determined, still a little bit naive. I'm like, okay, this happened, but I am ready, like I've got a job. I'm like, okay, this happened, but I am ready, I've got a job, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And I did everything that I said I was going to accomplish. I did. I earned two degrees. I did get married pretty early on. My husband and I had knew each other before I went to prison. We have two beautiful children. I've held the same job for 15 years and I have I completed my probation. No issues, no, nothing.
Heather:I got off the registry five years ago. I will say this and this I did not know either. This was a bit shocking to me. I ended up moving back to Ohio and so when I went to do my final registration or whatever they're like, okay, you're off, and here's this piece of paper and I'm like, what is this paper? They're like now, even though you're off the registry, if you ever move or go on vacation, you need to make sure that they know, because you may have to register there and I'm like what, what?
Heather:I was like this cannot be happening. I'm like this cannot be and I'm like reading this letter. They're like make sure you keep that letter. I'm like reading this letter. They're like make sure you keep that letter.
Jason:I'm like it. So the idea that you've completed a sentence Correct and you've done what you're supposed to do and you've done it all right. You've completed it, you paid your dues, you paid your debt to society, but society has decided that it's never enough, that you were going to keep you in this state of confusion where, if you go to Florida, things could be really bad for you.
Heather:Yeah, yeah, it's still. Even now I'm like, okay, let me just stay in Ohio forever because I don't know. So, yeah, I completed everything successfully. I have been in therapy on and off for a very long time and even though now I'm 37 this all happened at 18, 19 it still affects me to this day. Yes, like looking at me, looking at my life, you would never have any idea. However, even being on the registry, those 10 years I feel like kind of flew under the radar. We moved, but every time we moved. So every time we moved, when I had my children when they started school, it was this fear of who's going to find out, who's going to know. How is that going to affect my girls? So it really made me be quiet, like I really only got into and really I wouldn't say that I'm really into advocacy now, but I am in groups and I'm trying to be more vocal and because it's important because it doesn't just stop when you get out of jail or when you get off probation or when you get off the registry.
Heather:It doesn't just stop when you get out of jail or when you get off probation or when you get off the registry. It doesn't end there. It really feels like a lifelong sentence. And even now, being off probation, I still feel trapped, I still feel stuck and it's a weird place to be in. Because even now, like looking at my life and knowing what I've done and knowing what I've accomplished my life and knowing what I've done and knowing what I've accomplished, there's still a part of me that feels like that 17, 18-year-old Does that make sense?
Amber:Yeah, it makes a lot of sense and I think this is one of the most important aspects of system involvement of any kind, whether it includes registry or it's incarceration or it's the struggles that people have in reentry. Is that what we do as a society really matters? And the way that the system is so disproportionate and we sentence people for too long, we don't provide real, meaningful rehabilitation, we don't do all of those things to support people and welcome people back, which causes an internalization of those messages to that person. So, even though intellectually, heather knows that Heather did everything that she could right, heather knows that she's an amazing mom, that she got her education, she's giving back to her community by sharing her story, there's this little voice of I'm still that 17, 18 year old that made a mistake or was held accountable for things that other people are no longer really held accountable for. So is that absolutely resonating?
Heather:with you. Does that feel? Yes, and it's still again. It still affects me to this day. It feels like almost an impossible situation. I know it's not, but sometimes it feels like that and I do struggle with my mental health and I think a lot of it stems from all of that trauma. Right, even though it's been 20 years, I feel like almost during that time I was survival mode. I was like, okay, I got to do this, I got to do that and now, at 37, I feel like it's all just coming out.
Jason:I think that's normal and the trauma for you did not start with this situation. The trauma started for you earlier with your mother and the instability, but you went through that extra and those extra challenges and unique challenges, right that are. It's not common for women to be on the registry. It happens. We know that we've met several, but it's not necessarily a common experience. So when people are on the registry, you often hear about the men and the systems that are designed for the men.
Jason:So here you are, as a woman, going through this, and that can feel even more isolating.
Amber:Right. And again, it's so valuable to really share these things because, again, that that woman who's listening today, that says wow, I really see myself in this story is uplifted by the fact that she knows she's not alone. I want to ask you, heather, about your experience with this with children. You mentioned that it caused you to be a little more quiet. Did you experience challenges being involved in their activities? Tell us a little bit about that.
Heather:Yeah. So I feel like this is one of those things where my situation is a little unique and probably definitely better than some of the stories I've heard. I'm very active in their schooling and in their activities. There are things that I cannot do. I can't go on. If they're going to pull a background check, I can't go on a field trip with them. They're in Girl Scouts. I can't be a Girl Scout leader. I could never coach them. Now when I say I can never, I will say this I've never tried. I've never tried, if any. If it has anything to do with me having to fill out a background check, I'm out. I'm not doing it. So is it possible? Maybe, but that fear of judgment and that fear of that spilling over to my girls is too much for me. And even now, so like I volunteer at their school when I can, of course I'm at every game I'm there, but there's always that little voice almost you don't belong here. You don't belong here because what if people found out?
Amber:Thank you for naming that and I think it is important. I heard you say I've been really lucky and whatever. It is important for people to hear the positive experiences as well, and so you are able to volunteer, you're able to do those things with your girls, and that is is such a beautiful thing.
Amber:But the other thing that was important that you shared, that I certainly find really valuable, is sometimes it's about how you're protecting others by not wanting to insert yourself in a place that may, if misunderstandings occur, affect them, and that is a struggle that every person who is required to register and, to be fair, often those who are connected to people who are required to register struggle with. Does my presence here cause harm to someone else? And again, that's not a reality, that somehow your presence is going to be harmful, but it is the way that our society treats these issues that causes that.
Jason:I appreciate what you just said, amber, in terms of worrying about the impact to her daughters, worrying about and there could be an impact to her husband, or anything like that. But let's just take a step back here and say, what if people found out? What? That you committed a crime right Technically, 20 years ago, that you did everything that was asked of you, that you've been in therapy and you've turned your life around and you're living a positive life, so that is a success story. Like you don't know.
Jason:Like those people that are judging you, what are they doing? So like you are, what if they found out? And so that's my question so what? So I'm at the point now if they find out and they judge you for it, that's on them. I don't want to be. I'd rather hang out with you than the person that's judging you, because you're a much more decent person. You went through hell and you're standing and you're here and I support you and I will stand by your side and I would go with you and I would tell those people stand down. You're the ones causing harm.
Amber:I love that, jason, because I think that when we look at, like our calculations, the way we navigate through the world, right, we navigate through the world right. We don't want to live in perpetual fear and we also don't want to do things again that are going to put us or our families at risk. So these are calculations that we make, but tying it back to that internalization, I think what Jason is really trying to communicate here is that don't internalize that right. It's really difficult not to and know that. I talk about this when I talk about like employment, a lot like as an employer, right, our organization hires somebody who has been through the system and is required to register and you know what that person has all of the skills and also the grit and the passion, and I would rather have individuals like that that have been through it and know how to navigate all of those challenges than someone else. Heather, what's going through your mind when you're hearing some of these messages?
Heather:So what is going through my mind is like when Jason is saying what he's saying, I'm like, yes, like, in fact, like my therapist has said that to me many times and I'm trying to find my voice and I'm trying to find that that's not a representation of me. That's on them if they choose to judge me like that. But it's still very difficult if they choose to judge me like that. But it's still very difficult. And like with the employment thing I wanted to talk about that really quick too, because, though I've been extremely lucky I've been at the same company for 15 years and it is a family business there is a part of me that I'm still scared to step out. I've never really tried to get another job, like I've never tried to apply anywhere, because that voice in my head is like yeah, but see everything that you're barred from CCCC.
Heather:And now I have started. I do have my own very tiny cleaning company, which I love. It gives me a sense of purpose, it gives me a sense of joy and it's wonderful. But there is that. There is that voice. That's okay. What if I want to try to do this? Or what if I want to do that? And then that voice in my head is like yeah but no, is like yeah but no. So I don't again like. I feel like I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I complain too much and I'm like girl, like despite what you've been through, like you have this really, but also, yeah, there's still a lot of yeah, this is the thing that is humanity, right?
Amber:We talk about a lot on this podcast and in our organization and in our own lives about being able to hold multiple things at one time. Yeah, and that feels to me when I'm hearing like what you're describing time. Yeah, and that feels to me when I'm hearing like what you're describing, that those are a couple of things that you can hold at the same time. You can hold the fact that, yes, this happened, but you also can hold those things that are like, hey, I'm a badass, I did all these things and I am a total badass, so you can hold that at the same time and grow the badass part and shrink the quiet, the other part. Heather, I am so thankful for this conversation and your authenticity and your openness, and so I think our final question for you is if you had one piece of advice for a person who was on a similar journey to your own, and maybe at the beginning of the journey, what would that be?
Heather:Keep fighting, keep going. It's not going to be easy. You're going to have really hard times, but you can make it, and that your story matters, your voice matters, even if you can. Part of the reason I came on here was for myself to finally tell my story, but also for anybody else who is listening. You can go through all of these very traumatic, very hard things and you can also make it out the other side. Not that it's easy, because it probably won't be, but it can be done and it takes a lot of work.
Amber:I really love that. Thank you so much, heather, for being with us today, again for being so authentic in your sharing, and I'm super excited about what comes next, because I know that you are getting more comfortable with your story and moving into a little bit of advocacy work and things like that. That's super amazing, jason.
Jason:Last thoughts so my last thoughts are this Heather First, a little bit of shame is good, right, because it keeps you from doing stuff. Having too much shame is not great and if I can share anything with you personally, it's you have nothing at this point to be ashamed of. You are doing some tremendous stuff in your world as a mother, as a spouse, as an employee and now gaining your voice as an advocate for others. Welcome to the cause and the community which you've been in for quite a long time, by default, but welcome. I look forward to working with you on other issues. You've been tremendous today and very generous with your emotions and your honesty, and I appreciate you and thank you for being here and with that, until next time, amber.
Amber:We'll see you next time.
Outro:You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast listing the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. For more information, episodes and podcast notes, visit amplifiedvoicesshow.
