.jpg)
Amplified Voices
Amplified Voices is a podcast that lifts the voices of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Hosts Jason and Amber speak with real people in real communities to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Together, they explore shared humanity and real solutions for positive change.
Amplified Voices
Laurie: Rethinking Justice Season 5 Episode 8
In this episode of Amplified Voices, Amber and Jason chat with defense attorney, Laurie Jubelirer who walks us through her remarkable 37-year legal journey that began in prosecution and transformed into passionate defense advocacy.
Growing up in a family of legal and public service professionals—with a father who served as senator for 32 years and a grandfather who was a judge—Jubelirer entered the legal profession driven by the mantra "make a difference." But after years in the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office, and the Pennsylvania Office of the Attorney General, she began noticing troubling patterns. Victims were being treated as tools for prosecution rather than individuals with agency. The system prioritized winning cases over finding true justice. Something had to change for her.
Today, as a defense attorney with her own practice, Laurie witnesses first-hand the devastating human cost of our criminal justice system. She shares shocking stories of medical neglect in Pennsylvania prisons, talks about due process issues, over-sentencing, conviction integrity and much more.
About Laurie:
Laurie Jubelirer is the owner of Jubelirer Law, LLC, and her law practice in Montgomery County is devoted to helping individuals facing criminal charges, violations of their civil rights and wrongful convictions. She opened her law practice twelve years ago in 2013. Prior to opening Jubelirer Law, she worked as a prosecutor in the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office and as a Deputy Attorney General in the Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General. Ms.
Laurie writes about the experiences of her clients and publishes them with permission in a quarterly column and on social media platforms with the hope that they will bring about positive changes in the criminal justice system. Ms. Jubelirer is a member of Women Owned Law; the Corrections Committee of the Pennsylvania Bar Association; the Montgomery Bar Association Criminal Defense Committee and Judiciary Committee; and a Board member of Congregation Kol Ami in Elkins Park.
Find her online at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauriejubelirer/
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories, to have conversations with real people in real communities, a way to help them step into the power of their lived experience? Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.
Jason :Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices. I'm your host, Jason, here with my co-host, Amber. Good morning, Amber.
Amber:Good morning Jason.
Jason :Amber. Today we have Laurie Jubelirer . Good morning Laurie. Good morning to you both.
Amber:Good morning.
Laurie:Really Glad to be here.
Jason :And Laurie, for the listeners just share that I've known you for a very long time, so this is a treat to have you as a guest and thank you for being here. And I will start with the same first question we always ask, which is could you tell us a little bit about your life before entering the criminal legal system and what brought you into it?
Laurie:My father was a politician and a senator for 32 years, so that started when I was 11 years old. His campaigns. My grandfather was a judge. My uncle was a lawyer, so I grew up with it and with politics and trying to help people and do community service, good things for the community. When I was young and whenever someone asked me what do I want to do, I always thought it was either a teacher or a lawyer. I wanted to teach and impact people and help, and then the lawyer was. I think it's innate inside me that I wanted to help people and my father always says the three important words are make a difference. And that impacted me a lot and that's what I do and that's what gives me a lot of joy and satisfaction.
Jason :Awesome, so you had an idea of what you were getting into. So you ended up going to law school and you fulfilled your dream.
Laurie:I did when I went to law school. I picked Temple University primarily because I loved the idea of being a trial lawyer, a litigator, and they were known for that to teach us how to try cases to litigate. I was on the moot court and the mock trial team and had a lot of professors who taught me how to try a case, like practical experiences, and I also got an LLM, which is an advanced degree in trial advocacy. After that, in 1995, like about five or about eight years after I graduated law school, Awesome.
Amber:And so, Lauri, where are you from? Like what area of?
Laurie:the country I'm originally from, altoona, pennsylvania, which is in the middle of the state of Pennsylvania. I would say it's a rural area and when I was growing up at some point perhaps it was in high school I decided I really wanted to leave and be in or near a city and that's why I chose the University of Pennsylvania for college because it had a beautiful campus and it was in a city and I wanted more diversity and culture, different kinds of people and experiences, and that's why I left and I didn't like the feeling of when I grew up that people were much the same and didn't understand people that were different from them, and I didn't want my children to grow up in that kind of atmosphere. So I stayed in Philadelphia once I went to college. I've stayed here. I've been here ever since.
Amber:All right In the big PA up there.
Jason :Mm-hmm, so where did your career take, you?
Laurie:During law school I had an experience in the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office, which was my dream job back then. I loved being in court, I love prosecuting and at that point it was seeking justice and doing good for the people in the Commonwealth. And so the summer experience after my second year of law school I got to go in court and actually try and handle cases under supervision. But I handled them and I had victims and witnesses and judges and in the court like almost every day and I and that and then I applied to have that job after that experience and I was accepted in my third year of law school. So that was my very first legal job and it was a wonderful experience.
Amber:And so what was it about that particular experience? Was it sort of about that particular experience? Was it sort of delving into the law, understanding what, what was?
Laurie:it. Exactly that made you really like, excited about being in court. A lot of my colleagues in law school they got jobs where they would do research, writing and not get to have have direct experience legal experience, litigation experience and I was thrown and put in the courtroom right away and I love that. I love doing it and it taught me how to be comfortable trying cases. A lot of lawyers are afraid to try cases and that made me comfortable thinking on my feet, fighting, arguing on my feet. So I love that and I wanted to continue that and I was really grateful that I was able to secure my first lawyer job there.
Jason :How similar is it to what we see? I mean, there are a million TV shows and movies that show lawyers trying cases. Are there any that stand out as the most realistic or is completely different from what we see?
Laurie:Yes, the TV shows make it seem somebody will confess on the stand, for example, or say you know, like, for example, someone who's the accused, the defendant, in a criminal case. It makes it look so much easier, like the evidence is so strong and then they'll confess, or on cross-examination, something big will turn up. And it's not like that in reality. It's more complicated and complex and sometimes you have witnesses, that recant for example, and you have to figure out well, what do I do? And I have to introduce their prior statement, and things get a little messy and complicated. But TV makes it look much easier and it's not that way.
Jason :Did you always feel like you were on the right side of justice and you were out there doing great work for humanity?
Laurie:I did at the time that I was in the district attorney's office. But I can say with confidence that I feel more so now as a defense attorney like way more so that I'm on the right side of justice because I see a lot going on and my clients are human beings. Now At the DA's office it was the Commonwealth and that's yes. It's the victim in a sense, but they're not my client. My client's not the victim, it's the commonwealth, the people. Now I have human clients and I feel exactly like a passion making a difference more on this side.
Jason :So we'll get into that a little bit, but could you tell us about your journey, like what was the transformation for you that said, here I am as a prosecutor, I'm doing this work, but I really want to be on the defense side, like what happened? Was there a moment?
Laurie:I would say not a moment, but a number of experiences along my journey journey. I was in the district attorney's office for eight years and then a lot of us feel like, well, if you're not going to be there for a career position, then let's move on to do something else. And I had a few jobs in between the district attorney's office and opening my own practice. The district attorney's office and opening my own practice and, honestly, I was never really completely happy and satisfied with what I was doing. I did some civil work as an employment lawyer of plaintiffs. I did some.
Laurie:And then I worked in the attorney general's office, for many years actually, but again, that was it was civil work, and my clients again weren't human beings, they were in litigation. I represented state employees I guess they wereDOT, which is the Department of Transportation oh, someone had an accident on a pothole. So it didn't satisfy me as much as what I do now. And then, while I was there, I kept dreaming about opening my own practice and thinking that this is what I wanted to do, and it took some time, but I had it in my head. When I turned 50, which was in 2012, I think that I was going to open my own practice and I actually did in 20, right around, right after I turned 50 or 51 in 2013. And I did it with no clients and it was very hard in the beginning, but now I'm just exactly where I would have dreamed to be.
Amber:So Laurie, I have a question for you, Something that you mentioned really sort of spurred a lot of the things that we talk about when we talk about the system itself and how it serves humanity and human beings and justice. Right, I heard you say I was representing the state, I was not representing the victims, or the victims were not my client, and so, just for background, we talked to a lot of different people on this podcast and I myself am a crime survivor. I have a family member who went through the system and had the prosecutor say multiple times I'm not your lawyer. Did you see how that framework might be harmful to victims? Did that occur to you in the moment?
Laurie:Yes, For example I'll give an example a domestic violence case. Let's say the victim and oftentimes the victims were women. Let's say the victim changed her mind and things got better and they decided you know what? I don't want to prosecute. We have children together. I don't want my significant other going to jail. I'm comfortable, you know, in the moment I called the police but I don't want to prosecute anymore. And then the DA's office is like it's not your choice, we're the Commonwealth, we're going to call you to testify, whether you like it or not and I don't know if the right word is, but I didn't like that experience and it didn't seem that that was justice. Maybe there was some other solution that was better for both sides, all sides. And that's an example where the victim's not feeling like they're being forced and compelled to come to court on behalf of the Commonwealth, but it's not their choice.
Jason :So you had to move forward. You know as a person in that role you had to do your job but you didn't feel good about it sounds like.
Laurie:It was really challenging. Now, sometimes I understood that people were, for example, in a very like a serious shooting case for example. People were scared. They thought, oh my God, if I come in and testify I'm going to get retaliated against. So I understood that and those cases you kind of felt like, okay, I have to do the right things. I really believe, with all the evidence here, that this defendant is the shooter and I have to bring in this witness, even though they're uncomfortable and even though they're recanting. But in some other types of cases, like I just said, with domestic cases, family cases, close relationship cases, the victim should have more of a say in the solution and resolution in those cases.
Jason :It sounds to me like it didn't just happen one time this happened. It was systemic.
Laurie:Correct, it was very systemic.
Amber:It seems like this was a number of years ago and you've made different changes and whatnot. Was there any talk at that time around restorative practices, restorative justice? Is that something that you're familiar with for those cases?
Laurie:Very good question. Back then, when I was a DA in the 80s and 90s, it was all about prosecution, punishment and winning. Now, in the 2020s, it's very different. The Philadelphia district attorney his name is Larry Krasner is all about restorative justice, justice, what's the right thing. It's not prosecute, punish, win. It's doing the best thing for the community, for the defendant, for the victim, like the right thing, and the right thing can vary from case to case.
Laurie:But back then, I just want to say in the 80s, 90s, 70s and I'm doing a lot of post-conviction work now I'm learning that the detectives, especially in Philadelphia, and the police, all they wanted to do was win, and they would bring in people from the streets and threaten them and do bad things to them in order to get them to say, to point the finger at the defendant that was accused just because they thought he was guilty or she. And then now in my post-conviction work, I'm seeing the bad results of people spending decades in prison who are innocent and finding the DA has an open file policy. So we're finding new evidence to show they in fact were wrongfully convicted or they should be exonerated, and it's rampant. I can't believe what I'm finding and seeing, but it gives me a lot of pleasure to be able to do this kind of work to turn things around for them.
Amber:Yeah, that is amazing, and I think that one of the other things that we experienced and I know I've experienced in my own experiences is this idea of budgets being very different in terms of defense budgets and the, you know, prosecutor's office. Is that something that you were aware of or have ever really thought about?
Laurie:I have been aware of it that the DA's office salaries for example, the assistant district attorneys, are earning more than the public defenders, have more resources, have more budget is higher and so it's more challenging. The defender's office, the public defender's offices, have had a lot of financial challenges because of it, and their work is just as important. It should be equal, but oftentimes I'm aware it might have changed up to now, but in the past it's been very different and it's not fair now, but in the past it's been very different and it's not fair.
Amber:So, Laurie, when you think about different things, that you experiences or particular cases, we understand that, like you can't talk very super specifics, but was there anything that really stood out to you and you think about? And I know Jason mentioned you know what was your turning point and it sounds like it was kind of a slow burn, but are there a case or two that really pulled at your heartstrings?
Laurie:there's so many. I'll tell you some of them that are pulling at my heartstrings now is the medical treatment in the prisons. It's awful beyond words. An example one of my clients was having a stroke and he yelled out for help to the corrections officer. I think he eventually did go to the medical department but they turned him away, sent him back to his cell. He ended up being like, I mean, he had multiple strokes and he ended up being paralyzed or on one of his sides and the rehab has been unbelievable. This is an example among so many. And so he has had to suffer unnecessarily because the medical people are the worst of the worst. They're all about saving money, they're not about helping people and they torture people honestly because somebody will complain and they'll delay and delay and delay and delay and then their situation's worse, so much worse.
Laurie:And I do those kinds of lawsuits that are civil rights lawsuits and unfortunately it feels like I file them and I litigate them, but it doesn't seem to be making it. I wish it would be making a difference, and that's what one of the things I want to figure out. How can I do that? And that's one of the things I want to tell my clients stories and let people hear the suffering and maybe that will help. But another example a client who was disabled was transported to, I think, from one prison to another and he needed to be strapped in and put in a wheelchair in a handicapped accessible van. And he wasn't and they threw him to the, put him on the ground for two hours rolling around in the van like they these people have no hearts and then he got very badly hurt.
Laurie:That's another client of mine and he has a lawsuit. So I learn over and over from the phone calls and the communications with these clients about the corrections officers are mean and nasty and inhumane and like torturers. They don't care about the people in the prison, they care about their paycheck. And the same with the medical people. It's both. And those cases I hear over and over and most of them all of them are in Pennsylvania County and state prisons and I want to be able to keep telling these stories because it needs to change. And people don't get any better, they get worse because they're tortured in there. They're not rehabilitated or they're not correctional facilities, they're I don't even know what to call them, they're just places of torture.
Jason :You know, it's interesting to me because when I pay attention to the stories that come out about prisons, it's usually the stories that tend to bubble up to the national level seem to be in the South, and Pennsylvania is not a state that I would think about as like this is a horrible place to go if you're incarcerated and you're painting a very different picture.
Laurie:There are some prisons that are better than others. Picture, there are some prisons that are better than others, but for the most part, like the one that's in my area is known for, I'm hearing over and over and over about clients that are being abused, neglected. There's one prison in the area I don't know if you're familiar with the Scandinavian system, but there's SCI, which means State Correctional Institution, at Chester has a portion of that prison that's called Little Scandinavia and they're doing a lot of good and that needs to be expanded, and I believe that their intentions are to expand it. So I have a little bit of hope that things are going to get better for some not all, but the Scandinavian system for those who don't know is more humane.
Laurie:The guards and the people are on an equal level. How can I help you? They're more about helping, treating, supporting, educating. They give them more freedom, their selves. I think. They have a kitchen, they make their own meals, they work. They feel more pride in their lives and they're not being punished necessarily. Yes, they feel more pride in their lives and they're not being punished necessarily. Yes, they are because they're in jail, but they're getting better, they're being rehabilitated, they're being treated like humans and I have a little bit of hope that things will change, but it's going to take a lot of work and things in many Pennsylvania prisons are bad.
Jason :Jason, like you said, yeah, that's what I was going to say. They treat them like they're human beings, right, like they're worthy of any type of dignity whatsoever. Wow, that's, that's cool.
Laurie:I know that's more rare and you get like, oh my God, like really Like wow, yeah, it's usually the opposite. So when things something goes right which I don't usually hear about those because people are calling me for help, but it's still a pleasure to hear about some positive experience in a prison that made someone better.
Amber:I mean, I think what I'm hearing from you is all centered in humanity. Even like, from the beginning, right, it was like I wanted to help people and you know I had this opportunity. And then you went, you saw, you did right and in the way that you were able to, in that moment you were helping people because it was about justice, right. And then, as things went on, you saw some different things about the health care. I think one of the things that unfortunately happens again, taking away the individuals who work in the system, who have been put into a culture that is a culture of dehumanization, right. So the corrections officers maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I don't believe that, by and large, most people start out wanting to go in and torture people.
Amber:I think a lot of police officers go into service for some of the same reasons that, like you, became a prosecutor, like people I'm not saying all there are some that in every profession, people go in for the wrong reasons. There are some that in every profession, people go in for the wrong reasons. But then, when you're there and we've talked to mental health professionals who are working in the system that are like, I thought I was going to change it from the inside out or things like that. I think one of the issues, or two issues, is what I tend to see and I want to ask your opinion on. One is the culture that is happening inside prisons, and two is this idea that we are putting people in permanent residential living situations without providing them with permanent preventative care, health care that is actual health care. We're basically putting them in this long-term situation, but giving them acute care it's like okay, rub some ibuprofen on it, your arm is off, you're bleeding out, here's your ibuprofen.
Amber:So, what are your thoughts on those concepts?
Laurie:It's true, I hear about people with very major things, major health things going on. I had a client with. He finally was diagnosed with Crohn's disease but he was his pain and his stomach and his like years of suffering. Like you say, like here, take Tums or whatever, but it took years and years. They're trying to save money. Honestly, a lot of the problems are due to greed, economics. People are making money from the system so it's good to have the more people in there because you have the commissary, the GTL, which is the communications. All these people are making money.
Laurie:Prisons in the rural areas, giving people jobs it's a lot of that. In terms of the medical care, yes, they'll try to do everything they can to give the ibuprofen or the little rubbing alcohol, whatever the neosporin, and then after, like major, major delays, when things are so much worse, then they'll take them to the outside specialist or hospital. But I hear what you're saying and I agree with you that it's not a correctional system. It's not helping people in general. There may be exceptions, but it's making them worse. They're desperate. Sometimes I'll literally have a conversation with someone and I'll make them feel better because I'm a compassionate, caring person and I just spent 20 minutes with them on the phone and they're like I feel so much better. So they're having opposite experiences there, where they're demeaned and put down and treated like worse than animals. It's hard for me to understand how one human can treat another as I've seen.
Amber:Great, yeah, and I think one of the things that I'm hearing you saying is, again, we're going back to that idea of humanity and in that, I think what we do is we isolate and we shame. And one of the best things that we can do is have conversations with people like yourself and be in proximity to people who have had these experiences Because, truth be told, before I knew what I knew, I didn't know it and I thought everything was fair and like you saw on TV and innocent till proven guilty and all of those things. What is your thoughts on that?
Laurie:That's I agree with you and that's one of the reasons why I do a lot of writing and I want to create awareness and, hopefully, some change.
Laurie:I feel like I might need to write a book and give it to the legislators and governors of stories of all these clients and let them see where our tax money is going. It's, it's not. And if it were any other business or company, if all this money's going, and if it were any other business or company, if all this money were going to this business or company and it wasn't working, why would you keep doing it the same way? Well, guess what, in the system of the government and the prisons it's not helping, it's making people worse, but yet it's costing we taxpayers a lot of money, millions and millions and millions. Like why is that? It makes no sense. But you see the politicians on TV thinking look at this weak DA, mr Krasner, for example, like he's making more crime. In reality, actually, he's actually making crime less because he's thinking about what the best solution is for each case and doing the right thing and making them yeah a better result you're.
Jason :You're tapping into that same idea that you know it's. Everybody measures the absolutes in the media, right like there was this one person that went out and did this bad thing. So the whole thing that this progressive person can't be doing the right stuff because they allowed this one bad thing to happen. However, before there were 10 bad things that were happening and now there's one, so you've got to look at it at a relative basis. Has this policy made things worse or better? And we tend to look at the absolutes, because you're never going to make crime go entirely away tend to look at the absolutes, because you're never going to make crime go entirely away.
Amber:Correct yeah, correct yeah. And people talk a lot about like risk and things like this, as if A you can completely measure risk or tell the future as much as we just really want to. Right, we all want to have a crystal ball. Humans are complex, so this idea that we know what's going to happen based on the past and flattening people into their past is probably not the best way to go about things. Laurie, I want to ask you about personal impact. You know, over the years, the work that you've done, either celebrations, right of work and fulfillment, or days where you felt am I doing the right thing. Tell us a little bit about that.
Laurie:I know inside me I feel like I always, every day, feel like I'm doing the right thing. And the right thing varies from case to case and person to person. Sometimes the right thing is negotiating a plea of somebody who get a lot, something worse than what I'm trying to do for them. That's sometimes justice in that case, and then other times it's fighting until the end because you believe your client's innocent and didn't do anything wrong and and fight, fight, fight, fight. And people often ask me, like how can you do what you do if you think someone's guilty? I'm like that's not how I think at all.
Laurie:I just think everyone has the right to a lawyer, everyone has the right to a defense and thank goodness for the constitution and that's whatever. You, anyone in your family or loved one and you'd want them to have the right to a lawyer and the best result. So, personally, I've had my own practice for the last 12 years. I've never. I love, love, love, what I do and I love the impact that I have on all my clients because even if there's a bad outcome, they're generally very grateful that they had a good advocate. So that makes me feel very, very personally fulfilled, and more so than anything that I've ever done before.
Amber:That's amazing and I can only imagine, over the course of 12 years of working with clients in that capacity, how many lives that you've touched. I have to say I do remember, in my interactions with the system, finding someone who gave some glimmer of compassion in any given moment. So, whether it was going to a prison and having one person treat you like a human because even as a visitor right, people are not that nice felt like I was being shaken down and whatever. And I remember, in particular, one corrections officer that showed me some small inkling of compassion during this process, tried to make a little joke, whatever, try to make it a little bit like we weren't doing what we were doing, and that really went a long way, right. So I think that cannot be overstated that compassion, no matter where you fall out in the system, is imperative. So thank you for doing that 100%.
Laurie:It makes people better themselves, even if you have somebody on their side who sees them as a human. But if it's the opposite, the system is going to fail. So I very much agree with you.
Jason :So, as an attorney who's watching the news and you see things happening where people are snatched off the street without due process and things like that, how are you reacting to what you're seeing in real time?
Laurie:My heart hurts so much. I just wrote something about this and I posted it on Facebook and LinkedIn because it's so disturbing. The gentleman his name is Mr Garcia, in Maryland is the example. I see all that I do for my clients and I see that we get court hearings and we get due process, even if I don't agree with the result. I'm getting a hearing. I'm getting to say, getting to advocate for their client. The judge is making a decision. That's called due process and the idea that our country can just take someone because they're an alleged immigrant and not even somebody with a necessarily with a criminal history, without any going in front of any judge, is absolutely outrageous and I beyond words that I can say and I feel.
Laurie:And then I recently saw two judges that were arrested within the last couple of days for allegedly quote hiding an immigrant or something. I'm outraged beyond words and I hope and pray that we have people in our country that continue to fight back against this. It's wrong, it's against our constitution. One of the basic tenets of our constitution is due process. We can't just say, oh you have, I don't like the color of your skin, I don't like where you were born, I don't like your religion, exists. Therefore, you don't belong here without a hearing, without approving anything that they justifying their deportation. I've had clients who are from, not from this country, who are undocumented, accused of crimes, but they've had their hearings, they've, and if they've been found guilty, they serve their time and then they get deported. After seeing an immigration judge, it's all proper. I've never, ever, seen anything like this and it's frightening to me. It's frightening I, we, we live by our constitution and our three branches of government and it's not happening and it's very disturbing.
Jason :I mean, amber, to hear Laurie say that, you know like I have my feelings about it. But to hear it from somebody who's been studied the law, been in the law, you know yeah.
Amber:I mean, I think you're exactly right, and it makes me think about something. Actually, one of our previous guests said that I just felt was so profound what we accept for others, we must also be willing to accept for ourselves. Right, and so people who have not really had to think about it or been touched by injustice or whatever touched by injustice or whatever come in contact with the system, think, well, okay, if that person, who was a criminal gang member, didn't have due process, good riddance, right Again. But who was it that said that they're a criminal gang member? What was the evidence that they were a criminal?
Amber:So this means, okay, I'm walking down the street and somebody walks up to me and says Amber, you're a criminal gang member, get in this van. Oh, you don't want to get in the van, I'm going to snatch you and put you in this van and you know what? I'm sending you to an El Salvadorian prison. And I might say I'm not in a criminal gang. What are you talking about? I'm from Connecticut, you know, like whatever, guess what. There's nothing that anybody can do without due process.
Amber:So I think people really critically need to think about that, regardless of whether, if it can be weaponized against people that you hate, it can be weaponized against you if the conditions were different. Period, end of story.
Laurie:Injustice for them is injustice for all of us. That's right. It could be us next. They don't like my tattoo? Right, we need to. Every one of these are human beings. And the other scary thing is, once they're in the El Salvador prison, they don't get the same rights that we have in our prisons. In our prisons, we still have the Constitution. If we're tortured, abused, neglected, once you leave the country, you don't have that anymore. It's awful, and who knows how long they're going to be there. They're not going to see a judge.
Amber:They're just. It's frightening. I am very encouraged by the amount of people who are in the streets doing what they can do in whatever area of influence. Lawyers like yourself saying the things that you're saying, writing things on the Internet, writing op eds you know different organizations in court fighting these things. I am feeling hopeful that we will hold the line. It does feel very terrifying, but I'm feeling very hopeful because of the amount of people that I have talked to, seen, been in interaction with, that are like wait a minute, this is not what we do. This is not America.
Jason :Yeah, and the other thing, Laurie, you know we talk to people, amber and I talk to people who have criminal records, all you know, all the time, and we talk with people and a lot of the people have sex convictions. So, when there's such inflammatory talk about what are we going to do with these people, right, and these criminals and these people who have done these things and the thought that they're going to expand it and there are people, even it's one thing you're talking about people who are from other countries, which is, I think, is horrible, but then you're talking about American citizens potentially being rounded up in the same way. We are in very dangerous times.
Amber:I agree and I mean, I think it's all and I think you said it, jason it's all bad, like if you are a human and you're being treated in this way, regardless of your immigration status, regardless of your citizenship, regardless of whatever. This is not the way that our Constitution allows people to be treated. This is not the fabric of America and it's very scary, and I think that a lot of people left and right are realizing this.
Jason :Which is good, because I think there has to be such a strong reaction that says this is not okay, because you've kind of flipped the switch that says it is okay and a lot of people are out there like cheering it on. So it's not like everybody's cheering it on, but there's still 20, 30% of the country that thinks this is okay and that's not OK.
Laurie:It's not the United States of America, it's not who we have always been.
Amber:If we were on the outside looking into another country, we would be accusing them of human rights violations, war crimes and, to be fair, I need to say out loud this is very, very visible. Out loud, this is very, very visible and people are like, whoa, this is horrible, but this has been happening in our country to certain populations forever and ever and ever. And so, on one hand, while people are saying this is horrible, this is injustice, people aren't getting due process, people are being treated unfairly. Let's not pretend. This is a good opportunity to discuss things like. You mentioned, this idea that people aren't getting health care, they're not getting due process in rural, no mechanism to speak out and no one to share. What's happening then? What's to stop it? You have no voting rights. Who's going to stop it?
Laurie:That's what I always say. It's behind closed doors. No one sees what's going on in the prisons, for example, and their voices aren't being heard. So it's important, that's my passion, and what I do is let their voices be heard. I want people to know what's going on and, like I said, I hope that it will bring about some change at some point. But it seems that people only get upset when it's them and their loved one. Oh, now I understand, but if it doesn't have anything to do with them, they seem like you say, amber, not to care.
Jason :Do you think the change that's required is incremental or do you think it's transformational?
Laurie:I think, because we're going to have to do it one step at a time. I don't think it's going to happen in a big way all at once. I think we need to take little steps so people understand how bad it is and that it's not okay to think that putting people in prison is going to solve crime. It's not, especially in prisons that make them worse. It's not. The money should be to help them.
Jason :It's always funny when we talk about sentence lengths, right? So one person might say, oh, they only got five years incarcerated, and my response is always like could you try one day incarcerated before you say that only five, like it could really have a negative impact on your whole life versus being something that's positive. So what are your thoughts on sentence lengths?
Laurie:Especially in Pennsylvania. I can't speak for other states, but there used to be mandatory sentences for certain things. A lot of them have been eliminated, but one of the things I'll give you an example in Pennsylvania, and I'm hoping that it will change is called felony murder and life sentences. Felony murder means if you and your friend, you and your cohort, go and decide you're going to commit a robbery or steal something or anything and the friend, having nothing to do with you, ends up killing them because you were involved in the felony, I guess, the robbery. You went to steal something from someone and you had no idea the friend was going to kill them. You could be found guilty of felony murder and in Pennsylvania right now as we speak, it's a life sentence and I have a lot of clients that have been in for decades for things that happened when they were kids, like 19 years old. They were adults but they were kids.
Laurie:The Supreme Court of Pennsylvania is currently considering whether that life sentence for felony murder is unconstitutional meaning. Is it cruel and unusual punishment against the Eighth Amendment, and I'm hoping, fingers crossed, that they realize it is. We call it death by incarceration. These life sentences are horrendous. Many of my clients are now older and they need a lot of medical care. So our money's going there Low, low, low or no chance of recidivism. And they could do a lot of good out here. They could do a lot of good with the young people and the young generation and try to guide and help them.
Laurie:But I'm outraged by the sentences that I've seen and the prosecutors who don't realize. And the prosecutors who don't realize like Jason says, five years is a lot Like. Some of these sentencing situations are huge. And Pennsylvania we have guidelines and we're supposed to go by the guidelines and we talked about this earlier about, oh, they're all about like, if you do this, then you get that, so prediction that have nothing to do with each individual case. If you have this, then you get that, so you have to really fight against that.
Jason :I mean the whole concept of time when you're in the legal system is crazy. I know lawyers work nonstop hours so they might lose track of what an hour is like, but the continuances between when you're arrested and finally convicted can be can feel like a lifetime because you're in that state of limbo and then you deal with it, whether it's the incarceration phase, the probation or parole phase and some type of supervision. I mean it can take decades off of your life.
Amber:I think the rigidity of the system tends to be very incompatible with the complexity of humanity, right and so when I think about I had a family member who experienced senior exploitation, and so the person who committed this crime against my family member, who I was the power of attorney of, was being held accountable in court, and I had to go to court many times. It's in a different state that I lived to the state to attend a hearing that had been continued and nobody told me.
Amber:It's awful awful, so I'm just saying like, again, the rigidity of the system or the way that they um, it's incompatible with the way people live their real lives, right? So I think that if we could infuse a little bit more flexibility and humanity into the system, then it might be useful, and it sounds like you're doing that.
Laurie:I agree, and the people that make the laws. They don't have the same kind of experiences with the humans that are affected by the laws that I do and others do. So they don't know. They just think that it's a certain way and if you do X, then you get Y, and they don't know how they're affecting people and what the people are experiencing, because they've never experienced, they've never spoken with them.
Jason :So let me ask, Laurie, you've been working in the field a long time, first as a prosecutor, then on the defense side doing your own practice. You have a lot of experience. You've talked about that today. You were also raising a family while you were an attorney. Did any of this come into your home life, how you were as a mother, as a wife, you know, raising your family. Was there any impact or spillover, or not really?
Laurie:Well, my kids always knew that I was. You know I was working and what I did, and by the time that I set out to start my own practice, my kids were a little older. When they were young, I was working at the attorney general's office with a salary part-time for many years and then I don't believe that I could do what I do now with young children. I had to wait for them to be more independent because it's so intense. I'm working pretty much every day, and sometimes nights, sometimes weekends.
Laurie:It would be hard to have young kids doing this honestly, but they always know I think they really. We don't ever really talk about this, but I feel like I'm a good role model and that I stand up for what I believe in, and I imagine it does have an impact on my kids that they see don't be afraid to fight for what's right, and they've seen that I've suffered consequences from it, meaning unfair consequences. Personally, I've had some experiences with some judges when I'm doing my job. They don't like the way I'm speaking or advocating that they done some things, said some things to me that have been inappropriate, but they know that their mother is doing something she believes is good for her clients and good for the world and I hope I leave that legacy for them just like my father leaves for me, yeah that's great and I don't want to gloss over what you just said.
Jason :So you're going in and you're going in front of a judge and if you're at work and you're talking to a boss and they chew you out, it can be upsetting weight to a judge coming at you for something that I'm assuming you're going in doing the best you can for the job that you're trying to do in the moment and then to have to take that on in addition must feel like an additional injustice.
Laurie:It does. I practice not only in Philadelphia but in the suburbs. In one of the suburbs where I practice, which is where I practice a lot, it seems that everyone in the county is like friendly with each other. When they and some of the defense attorneys forget that they're supposed to be an advocate for their clients, not friendly with the DA or the judge. I mean, you can be, but your primary job is to be an advocate and I've gotten a lot of bad responses from DAs and judges, both like really inappropriate responses. One of them didn't like the way I was speaking. Quiet down, settle down, lower your voice. This is a male, older male, white judge Shocker.
Amber:Yeah, that was my impression. I was thinking this was definitely a white man.
Laurie:The first time I didn't know what to say and then I started saying I'm not going to quiet down, this is my job, I am an advocate for my client and I will continue to speak. As I'm speaking Something to that effect he quieted down, but he always had it out for me, that judge, and didn't treat me very well or my clients very well, and I always thought they were retaliating against me for just doing my job.
Jason :That takes guts to do. So good for you, right? I mean, I'm sure, like you said the first time it happened, it's got to be that shocking, but to be able to stand there and say I'm confident enough in who I am and what I'm doing. So quiet down yourself, right, like no.
Amber:Back at you what I want to know. Because you've been practicing law for a long time right 37 years I cannot imagine, as a woman attorney, that this has not been the story since the beginning. What is your response to that?
Laurie:We'll be honest In the criminal defense field, when I come into court I look around and there are in the private sector, meaning private attorneys such as myself. There are very few women that do what I do. More of them would be DAs or public defenders, where they have salaries.
Laurie:It has been a tough road, especially like the male judge I just told you about was someone I'm remembering and it's been other ones too on the journey. I'm just remembering specifically because it was so blatant and then I was proud of myself and the way I learned to handle him and it made me feel so good, because when someone says something that you're not expecting, sometimes you don't know what to say back. But he did it to me three or four times and after the first or second time I just stood right up proudly and it made me feel like great, like that was a good, perfectly respectful response that he was out of line and he shouldn't tell me to quiet down, because every it was just when I raised my voice and I was arguing for my client, like why would I quiet down? I'm just being an advocate and if I was a man, I it would be completely fine, exactly.
Laurie:I would be passionate, not loud.
Amber:Exactly Right, yes, yes, exactly, I totally felt that you would be passionate not loud, exactly Right.
Jason :Yes, yes, all right, that's great. So we're getting towards the end of our time. I want to make sure we cover a few things before we finish. You talked about sharing your knowledge with others through your writing. Right, and what that triggered for me was that you should be out there training people and sharing your expertise. As you talked about being a woman attorney and forging that path, because there's a lot of female attorneys now right in the world that could learn from your experience. What are the different ways that people can learn from you, Laurie Jubelirer? Of the different ways that people can learn from you.
Laurie:Laurie Jubelirer right today. How do they access your writings? I just started a column with our legal intelligence, a quarterly column that I write. It's called In Pursuit of Justice, and so it's different. One of them was about, like, a client who has mental health issues in the system people with mental health issues. One of them had to do with the prison, like I said, about comparing Scandinavian prisons to our prisons, all things in the criminal justice system.
Laurie:I always repost it in like my social media. I want to keep trying to find opportunities, such as today with podcasts. One of my also goals and plans is to start my own podcast and I'm going to need some help because of my time and there's a college student that's going to start working with me next month, so I'm hoping that she can help me get it off the ground and take charge of it and just telling clients stories, and that's one of my goals. And then another goal from that would be to write a book about it and then really, just as much as I can at least today we have social media just get it out there as much as I can and I really think I need to get it to the legislators in our state, because that's who needs to make change and be aware of the laws that they pass and the impact that it has. So that's one of the things I want to be able to do in my future time.
Amber:So I love all of those things that sounds so exciting and I am looking forward to hearing about, particularly the podcast. We're podcast people, we love to support and uplift other podcasters and, of course, people who've been been impacted. One of the things that comes to mind to me that is one of the often used techniques and advocacy organizations is working with people who are incarcerated, provide them with opportunities or people in re-entry. Provide them with opportunities to have a platform to have their stories told to legislators. So, for instance, in Connecticut there's a wonderful organization called Stop Solitary and they worked with interns and attorneys to go into prisons and talk to people about something pertaining to a particular legislation and then had people go to the legislature and read those stories. So that's one way that might be pretty accessible and a great way that you might be able to get involved with some advocacy organizations that could help uplift what's happening to your client.
Laurie:I love that. I love that idea. It's great.
Jason :That's what we need to do. Amber, do you want to ask your last question?
Amber:Yes, Laurie, I usually ask a similar last question, just like Jason asked our first question, and it is if you had one piece of advice for someone who was on a similar journey to your own, what would it be?
Laurie:Take a risk, be true to yourself, follow your heart and do something meaningful and make a difference. Don't be afraid. When I first started in 2013, I had no clients, nothing. It was scary that I persisted and I did it, and the feeling that I have now of what I've accomplished and what I will continue to accomplish is wonderful. And I just would say to someone do meaningful work and enjoy what you do and make a difference.
Amber:I love that. Thank you so much, Laurie. Wow, mic drop.
Jason :Yeah, there's not much more to say other than thank you so much for being with us today and sharing parts of your journey. I'm sure, as we had talked about before, we even spoke here on the podcast is you know, we could probably spend a month talking about your experiences and comparing to some of the stuff that we've both been through, and so it's great. Maybe when you have your podcast, you can have us on yours, and that'd be amazing. And thank you for being here.
Laurie:Thank you so much, I really enjoyed our conversation.
Jason :Until next time Amber.
Amber:We'll see you next time.
Outro:You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast listing the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. For more information, episodes and podcast notes, visit amplifiedvoicesshow.
