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Amplified Voices
Amplified Voices is a podcast that lifts the voices of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Hosts Jason and Amber speak with real people in real communities to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Together, they explore shared humanity and real solutions for positive change.
Amplified Voices
Joe: Finding a Better Path - Season 5- Episode 6
Discover the story of Joe, a former high school football star, whose life took a dramatic turn, as a young man looking for purpose in unhealthy ways, Amber and Jason speak with Joe about his early influences, the choices he made, his experience with incarceration and his journey to accountability and repair.
From the exuberance of youth to the stark reality of prison life, Joe reveals how he grappled with incarceration and the decisions that led to his convictions, including the moment he was confronted by law enforcement. Joe's candid account provides an honest perspective on the stigmas surrounding sex offense convictions and the racial dynamics at play in the justice system.
Now a passionate advocate for change through self-compassion, self-reflection and positive goal setting Joe is on a mission to help others navigate their paths to recovery and reintegration into society through his Pathfinder program. He shares his aspirations to foster community support and accountability for those impacted by the criminal legal system, emphasizing that everyone has a story worth telling and a more positive path available.
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Everyone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories, to have conversations with real people in real communities, a way to help them step into the power of their lived experience? Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.
Jason:Hello, welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices. I'm your host, jason, here with my co-host, amber. Hello Amber.
Amber:Hello.
Jason:And today, amber, we are recording from Harrisburg, pennsylvania, a special live recording and we have a special guest, joe. Hello Joe.
Joe:How are you doing Jason? How are you Amber?
Amber:I'm doing really great.
Jason:So, Joe, we're going to start off the way we usually do it. I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit about your life before you entered the criminal legal system and what brought you into it.
Joe:Well, I'm from Downingtown, pennsylvania, and it's a town in Pennsylvania where football is king, and I played quarterback for Downingtown and I was the prince of our town at one point in time. I was a really well-liked individual. Growing up, I was very kind to everybody and I ended up committing a crime. I tried to start a cult after my career had ended.
Jason:Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, so you go from like football star yes, local community hero, to start Now, what made you think like?
Joe:start a cult. It started at probably about age five when I watched my brother and his friends bringing girls in and out of our house About five years old watching that and mimicking everything that my brother had did. My brother was like my God growing up, so I watched him and the behaviors were fostered in me early. And it's not like I had a bad upbringing from my parents, my mother and my father. I was a black kid from the suburbs so I was fortunate enough to have both in my life, but the behaviors in me. I knew at an early age that I had a different sense of control over most of my friends and most of my peers. So I used my athletic ability and I realized that at a young age that people were easily manipulated by my words. So I ran with that and eventually it became what it became.
Jason:So an example what are we talking about? People, was there alcohol? Was drugs involved Drugs?
Joe:alcohol, a bad philosophy that I learned and applied and had people believe in. That was truth. It actually came from a style of music that I grew up listening to. It's the the Memphis Underground. So I took a lot of the lyrics and I applied everything in life and I thought that I was going to be able to create, essentially, a family, when in actuality, this family was more like a cult rather than a family with beneficial ending. This ending was gonna be nothing deathly, nothing crazy, but I really didn't have a plan or anything to end this. I was so young, but it was all because I fostered so much pain in my heart because I didn't want to be this athlete.
Amber:Right, so, wow. So I'm thinking about. You're saying that you had siblings, that you were mimicking behaviors from. You were living in the suburbs, so you said you had two siblings. Is that right, okay? And so you're a football star. You start to notice that you're well-liked, your words can have power, things like that. So I'm still trying to find out how we get from. Okay, I'm going to math class, right, okay? So I'm like today I'm going to math class and I'm going to the game after and I'm transitioning. Did that feel like a gradual thing? Did you just realize one day it was happening?
Joe:Let's unpack that a little bit. This probably started when I was in my youth. I was always obsessed with like footage of world leaders and dictators and like the power that they had over other individuals. I was always obsessed with that as a child. So it really started in my youth and it gradually went all the way into that phase of my life. So how old are you at this point that we're talking? Probably seven or eight years old.
Jason:No, no, no, once you're like post-football, oh, post-football I was 23 years old. Are you asking them to do things that are illegal Um?
Joe:at first no.
Jason:At first no.
Joe:Yeah, and then in the beginning at first, no, in the beginning was all I was asked to mentor the student athlete population. So everything was good natured in the beginning and I had things that I was going through in my life and in my household, and then things with having children with a person that I didn't want to have kids with. So really it was ultimately like a pity party for myself Having children with someone you didn't want to have children with. Yeah, I had a one night stand with a person and she ended up getting pregnant, and then her and I it was all just a bunch of things that compiled on.
Jason:Was she part of the cult? No, so she's out. So you have. You have a woman that's outside of the cult. You have a. You have a child with her, and is the child living with you?
Joe:yes, we're both living together. She's living with you and, yes, we're both living together. She's living with you.
Jason:And then she ended up getting pregnant and you're doing this cult thing and when you're talking about your followers, yeah. So it was like that's my day job, I go home to my family and then I have these followers.
Joe:I was actually working as a custodian in the school district, and that's where I basically started everything out. I was working as a custodian in the school district where I played football at and I basically started it. There Are your followers minors. Some of them were students and some of them were out of school and, yes, they were minors in the beginning.
Jason:So mostly minors that you're and you're you're relatively young at that point, still yourself you're 20s, 21, 22, but you have minors that are that you'reors, that have that worship you because you were the football star. Yeah, the old football star, yeah, I think I saw that in a movie.
Amber:So of the things that you're describing, that sort of you were going through. You have this situation where you're starting a family earlier than you thought you would, but you mentioned sort of other things. Talk about that a little bit, if you feel comfortable.
Joe:I witnessed a lot sexually in my house growing up, even though I had a really good upbringing I can't stress that enough but mimicking my brother's behavior, it really turned me into something that he didn't know that this was going to end up happening to me. He thought this was normal behavior. This is how I treat my brother. My brother's no longer alive, but this is how I'm supposed to. You know my brother. I'm showing him how to be a man, and this and that because our father worked two jobs. So my vision of a man, besides watching my dad come home from work, my vision of a man was my brother, my older brother.
Amber:So Okay, and so you graduate high school. You're working in the school. What did aspirations for college, or was that something that was out of reach?
Joe:My brother and I we started a music group and we were DJ and techno music and we traveled all over. We traveled to about nine different countries. We were DJing techno music and we traveled all over. We traveled to about nine different countries. We played music and stuff everywhere. So my life really didn't look that bleak. I really had kind of life by the blank, you can say it.
Jason:You can say it. We have a little conversation, I feel like I had life.
Joe:It's really hard for me to actually even explain the monster that was. You had life by the balls. You wanted to say it, man.
Jason:All right, even explained the monster that was life by the balls. You wanted to say it, man, all right, go ahead, all right. So if you're looking at it at that point, if I, if I saw you in those years, you would say I'm, I'm it yeah, right so right, I have a good life. Yeah, uh, you know, I've got the music stuff going on, I've got people following me, I've got this job, I've, I've got a kid. Everything's good, all right so what happened?
Joe:I started feeling sorry for myself. My career with football didn't start to go the way that it went, and I had nowhere else to look. I didn't want to go to college, I didn't want to do this. All I wanted to do was play football. So I thought. When I went to prison I realized that that wasn't what I wanted to do either. So I was so confused at that time period in life I couldn't find my direct path and I kind of lost myself, and it's really saddening to think about how deep I lost myself in that moment. All I had to do was ask for help, and I didn't know how to do that.
Jason:So if someone said to you what do you want to be when you grow up?
Joe:You'd say I didn't know how to do that. So someone said to you what do you want to be when you grow up? You'd say I don't know at that point in time what I would say if I want you know. When they would ask that, I would say, um, I wanted to be a football player, so I thought, okay were you trying to to?
Joe:play? Yeah, I was actually. I was actually trying to walk on at a local university to punt because I knew I could have got my film out there and the footage out there, but none of that transpired. Because of my drug use. I was afraid to let them really know I was struggling with alcohol, psychedelic drugs, weed women. I was really struggling at this time period.
Amber:Film, courage, and what was your first exposure to those things, alex?
Joe:Jones, probably when I was about 11. Like, I started smoking weed when I was about 11. But my whole life I had watched parties. Parents didn't really drink much, my parents didn't smoke weed, but I watched my brother and his friends.
Jason:So it's what you knew.
Joe:Yeah, that's it.
Jason:So you had this issue. You were already struggling with substances. Yeah. And then you were getting your followers to do the same yeah, they would smoke weed and they're young yeah and so um, what so? What happened? So? Is that how you ended up arrested?
Joe:no, I um, the encounter took place between me and one of my victims and, um, she had went and told one of her friends at basketball practice the night after everything had happened. So her friend had notified the basketball coach and the basketball coach had notified the principal. The principal had let the police know that, hey, we think that something happened and that police officer and I had a pretty good rapport with one another. He called me and he asked me to come to the station. My mom raised me. Good, I knew that I did something wrong.
Amber:That's what landed me in prison for 13 years one time okay and so, um, just to be clear, there was harm that occurred, absolutely, between yourself and an individual that was attending the school, absolutely, okay. And you get a phone call from the police and they say come down to the station. And what are you thinking in this moment?
Joe:I'm scared as hell. I've never been in a situation like this. I didn't realize that it would get this far. I didn't have the wisdom to see that far into my life. That it was. I knew it was going to crash, but I didn't know it was going to be this severe. So in that moment I just became fearful and didn't know what to do, didn't tell anyone, didn't talk to anyone and I went to the station on my own.
Jason:And just to backtrack for one second you're 23 at that point, so you're 23. You have, how old is your?
Joe:child. My kids at the time are two and one. I have two children.
Jason:So you have a two-year-old, a one-year-old, you have a girlfriend, and you call down to the police station and you know something's up, and then what transpires? What did they?
Joe:Oh, they called me to the police station and they questioned me. I told them you know the truth about everything that happened and the things that didn't happen, how this happened, why this transpired. And the police officer told me basically to sit there and when I came came, when he came back, he had an arrest warrant for me and I didn't see the streets for another 14 years so, um, we're gonna, we're gonna slow that down a little bit, but, um, you know, you'd never seen.
Joe:Like don't talk to the police messages yeah, but it was a lot different when I was placed in that like when I was placed in that predicament it was completely different. Like all the law and order stuff and don't talk to the police it went out the window. Why? Because of fear. I was really afraid and I felt like my mom said listen, if you ever get caught up, you have to tell the truth. Like you don't lie to me, so don't lie to other people. I knew that the cat was out of the bag.
Jason:So it didn't matter what you had heard before you were scared.
Joe:Yeah, plus, I didn't want to be living that life either anymore.
Amber:And you knew the harm that was being caused was in fact harm. Yes. So in your mind you're hearing your mother saying to you when you've done wrong, you're getting caught up. And so in your mind you're like, okay, well, I'm going to go down and perhaps, if I'm telling the truth about the things that have happened that will end up in my favor 100%.
Joe:Right, that's an awesome way to put it Right.
Amber:So you know, in systems that might work differently, or in rational thought one might think that. But just to be making it clear, rational thought one might think that, but just to be making it clear. There was no indication in your mind like, oh, it was just a thing, I didn't cause any harm, that was not what was going through your head.
Jason:Okay, and so your experience was different from what you had expected it to be. Definitely Okay. So you skipped over 14 years in your conversation, right? So you ended up like do they send you home that day?
Joe:No, I went straight to the Chester County prison on February 5th of 2010. And I never saw my house until November 9th of 2023.
Jason:So I'm sorry, so I'll do those years in a second. But so you said to them you basically said I'm guilty and they put you in a second. But so you said to them you basically said I'm guilty and they put you in a cell.
Amber:And so they set bail.
Joe:They gave me a bail at it was $45,000 in the beginning and they added more charges on a corruption of minors to. Actually I was bailed out for seven days. My mom paid a bunch of money to get me bailed out. I was bailed out for seven days. So they added on two corruption of minors charges because of her two friends being involved in this. So they said it was corruption of minors that I asked them to smoke weed with me, I asked them to drink a 40 with me and I solicited her one friend that if you come out west we can have a relationship. So they gave me criminal solicitation and two corruption of minors charges to take away my bail. And then they set my bail at like 75 000. But I was advised then by like my uncles and stuff who had done time to just stay in prison and just fight because this time could actually be accredited to whatever they give you. So that was the advice that I had taken at that point.
Jason:And then you, so you stayed in how long before you were actually sentenced? 18 months, okay, so that's.
Joe:I'm sure that, Because I went to trial and my district attorney was pregnant, so she kept continuing, continuing, continuing, continuing. It was literally like 11 continuances Each month. Basically it was a continuance on their behalf, but my lawyer never. He never let me know any of that type of stuff.
Jason:During that 18 months you must. Did you think that there was a chance you would be found not guilty?
Joe:and let out A chance that I would be found not guilty on a certain charge that they had gave me. You know the other charges I admitted to. So that's why I ended up going to trial was to fight the involuntary deviant sexual intercourse charge because I admitted to the statutory sexual assault. I admitted to the criminal solicitation. I didn't know the law.
Amber:So you're incarcerated, you're trying to make sense of the system, you're trying to make sense of the wide scope of charges that are being brought against you. And so during that 18 months, you were in jail.
Intro:Yes.
Amber:Okay. So then sentencing comes, or you went to trial, yep, okay. And so tell us a little bit about that. What happens during trial?
Joe:The voir dire process in Chester County was probably the most confusing process, I guess, because I didn't really see too many people that looked like me in the process. So from the beginning I was afraid I didn't feel like I had anyone who could possibly represent me in the jury. So it was really covered because I was an athlete, so everything was in the newspapers. Everyone knew in the prison my situation. But I was really candid and open about my situation when I was an athlete. So everything was in the newspapers. Everyone knew in the prison my situation, but I was really candid and open about my situation. When I was in prison I said this is what happened and I never really tried to mask it. I couldn't Everyone read the newspaper and everything was on the front. So the process of trial, I guess, is like they would call me over, they would have continuances and I would sit down in the bullpen, go upstairs, sit down in the bullpen, go upstairs and then the day you're told 13 years.
Joe:13 years but I ended up doing 14 because parole. You know how they. I got a parole hit when I was in prison, but 13 years the day that they told me about 13 years, I look back. My mother was dying and my brother was also dying. They were, my brother was sick and my mom had stage four colon cancer, but they wouldn't allow both of them in the court because they said it would influence the jury to say that oh, we feel bad for his mother, we feel bad for his brother because they're sick.
Jason:We couldn't have that as a society. We couldn't see you as a human being with family right, but 13 years hits you. I mean, when they say 13 years, I couldn't even imagine because I had to look back at myself.
Joe:I'm like 13 years. Kindergarten to 12th grade is 13 years. So I went from being 5 to 18, 13 years, 23 to I'll be out when I'm 36, 37. I couldn't see it and all I could see was my mother passing away and my brother Like that's. The only thing that I could see was that.
Amber:And so at that moment, clearly, what you're not thinking about, you know you're thinking about this system and what's happening now. What you're not thinking about is your own actions. Right, is your own actions right? So then you're sentenced, and where do you go from there? Do you end up in a state prison? Yep.
Joe:After I was sentenced I went back to Chester County for maybe about four or five weeks and after that they call you up and the guard will just say that means you're going upstate. So at that time we had to go to greater first. So I went to greaterford. I was there for about two weeks and then from greaterford they sent me to camp hill, then classification. Camp hill at that time was a classification jail so you would go get all your medical stuff, your psych stuff, all that, so then they could send you to what at that time was called your home jail. So I was at Camp Hill for eight months. I actually thought that that was going to become my home jail. Then I was snatched out and I was sent to Laurel Highlands, which is in Somerset County, which actually was prison utopia at the time, and it really saved me, because I don't think that I would have lasted mentally in the other harsher prisons in PA. Laurel Highlands actually saved me at that time.
Amber:So, for those folks who are not familiar with Pennsylvania, because we have listeners all over the country how far was the prison that you ended up in away from where you lived it?
Joe:was 354 miles exact from my house, from where I was born, but it was on the same road. It was on Route 30. So I would look out same road. It was on Route 30. So I would look out the window and I would see Route 30 and I would think 350. Some miles away is where my mother and father are.
Amber:Did that impact their ability to come and visit you In a?
Joe:way it did because my mother was sick at the time but I had a lot of love and support. So they did come and visit, but not like it would have been if I was at SCI Phoenix, which is 30 miles from my house, or at SCI Chester, which is 30 miles from my house.
Jason:So once you landed there, were you there the whole time.
Joe:I was there. I was at Laurel Highlands for my first eight years and then I transferred to another facility non-disciplinary, but it was a transfer because I wanted to get closer to home. My father had gotten sick when I was incarcerated. My mother had died in 2013, and then my father had gotten sick and he needed a kidney transplant. So they transferred me to the Eastern District but sent me 100 miles away from my house. How old was your mother when she passed away.
Jason:My mother was 61. So your mother's 61. It must have hit. I mean you're in prison. It did, I mean you're in prison.
Joe:It did. I mean, I was a mommy's boy growing up, so like it really I went through a fall Period is what I call it of like four years of just existing. I go to the law library, but I was just existing. I go to the weight room, but I was just existing. I go play basketball or football, but I was just existing. I wasn't obtaining any type of information, I was merely existing. And then my brother had died six months after that.
Jason:Oh my goodness, so we have.
Joe:So your mother passes away, your brother passes away, and now your father's sick and then my sister raised my kids for like the first six years that I was incarcerated. Then their mother came back into their life after her struggle with addiction and all that. So it was like a war with my sister. Every time I will call. It was never good news. It was always something about like my children's situation and where they were going to be placed, and it was just it was hectic for a while as you're sitting in the prison and the time is ticking on, are you thinking like how things could?
Joe:have been different, 100% every day. That was the thought I'd wake up every single day. I couldn't look in the mirror. And when I started to look in the mirror again, that's what I that's. Things should have been different. I should have made the right choices in life. I knew what I was doing was wrong.
Jason:Even even though what you did was wrong and even though you caused harm. Do you think that there could have been a different way to approach you, versus locking you up? Do you think locking you up helped keep you away from? Keeping you away from people Was the right thing to do?
Joe:I believe there were definitely therapeutic methods. Of course I should have done the 11 and a half to 23 months that they should have given me. According to the basic sentencing matrix in Pennsylvania, the crimes that I did commit At the max the crimes that I committed was 11.5 to 23 months.
Jason:Do you think so? I got two questions. Do you think race played a factor in your case?
Joe:100%. And I'm not even the type to pull the race card, but 100%.
Jason:So I'm going to ask you a part B like how so? And number two do you think the fact that you were this football star played a role? So talk about how, who you were made a difference in terms of how you were treated.
Joe:I never really was mentioned that way.
Jason:That was cool, I like that we like to do it a little differently.
Joe:Ask you in terms of how you were treated. I never really was asked in that way. That was cool. I like that. We like to do it a little differently. Ask you, my lawyer actually told me. He said that this is a race issue. There are certain people in our office who let me know that this is completely a race issue. This was around the election and my victim's family was something big in our county so and it's known that they don't really like my kind, they don't really like the guys in this mountain, and that's something that was known. I knew it was a race issue when I looked at 200 and something Was the victim white?
Joe:Yes, okay, 100%.
Amber:So I really appreciate you so much sharing that. I think that I do want to ask something of you, just because I'm needing this and feeling this in my body right now. I would like for us to refer to the person who was harmed as the person who was harmed, rather than flattening them into a victim. I appreciate you being so transparent and open. What was going on with you and you know the thought process and being vulnerable in this space, because these are difficult conversations to have. And when I think about the media and the role that the media plays, as I'm hearing your story and I'm thinking about it and I'm reflecting on my own story and knowing that there is a component of race right, there's a component of this football star that was so well loved, and then the person who was harmed looking very different from you, the people in the system looking very different from you, I really appreciate you sharing those things you said. My lawyer mentioned it to me. Had it occurred to you at all prior to that?
Joe:Definitely, because I'm just aware of the county that I live in and I know how the system works in our county. Plus, there were about three or four other cases like around the same time and the sentences were like unbelievably complete differences, the harshness of my crime to some of the harshness of other crimes. It didn't match up with the time that the people were receiving. And then I would see these guys and I would know oh, he's that color.
Amber:Right, you can say. You can say, we can say okay, he was white and his victim was black.
Joe:That's why the time was that way. It's not just a black and white case.
Jason:So, joe, listen, we're not trying to sugarcoat things. We want to talk about what's real, what's real for you and what your experience was Right. Talk to us.
Amber:So how did that? I mean sort of knowing that again, if we start to talk about, like, how can we stop cycles of sexual harm, right, and we're thinking about if you are up against a system that is not treating you fairly, you're thinking about that, right, and we're thinking about if you are up against a system that is not treating you fairly, you're thinking about that right, because that is real harm, the disproportionate ways that we handle things. So that is creating a lack of safety in your body, a lack of safety in your life, which is not having you think about. Well, you know, the harm that I caused was real to someone else, right? Am I characterizing that correctly? So when you're incarcerated, you mentioned that a particular facility saved your life. Yeah.
Amber:Tell us a little bit about that. What does that mean? Were there services there for you.
Joe:Were there people that you met there, right, people that were at Laurel Highlands. They were classified in Pennsylvania as level two. So a lot of guys that are level two, they're not dangerous. Really, like the way that I put it, anyone who's classified as a level two, this person's not dangerous. Regardless of what they've done, he or she has done enough to receive a level two clearance.
Joe:So at the time when I got sent there, laurel Highlands was a level two facility. The people that I met there guided me through prison in a way that I needed it. I couldn't have went somewhere like SCI Green or I couldn't have went somewhere like SCI Cold Township because they were violence-based prisons at the time. Laurel Highlands I was there maybe eight and a half years, like I said, and I might've seen two fights, so there was really no violence there which allowed me to have a clearer mind, to receive anything that was due to me in treatment. Like that made a complete difference because when I ended up at cold township, treatment was different because there was so much violence around.
Joe:I'm worried about watching my back. I'm not worried about what this facilitator is saying, right, I, I'm known to have a sexual crime like anybody could do anything, even though no one in 13 and a half years guys would ask me I didn't know, that's what you were here for and we we would talk about it openly. I never had anybody be like you effing this or you effing molester. None of that has ever. None of that happened while I was in prison and I was super fortunate for that to not happen, because I watched other guys go through complete hell Hell.
Amber:And when you say, like you know, there were people that were there that were helping you walk through, were those individuals who had been there longer, saw that this is the new person coming in, offered you some sort of warm accompaniment yeah uh talk about that it was mainly the people who had done a little bit of time and understood my situation.
Joe:After they would speak to me they would realize that I wasn't like the other younger guys. I could. I could listen. That's what the guys recognized. I listened and I took. I took constructive criticism well, so the guys gravitated to that. They liked teaching me, they liked showing me new things because I liked learning. So I listened. That's what I. That's where I got the best advice from. But most of the guys either had done 10 years, 15 years or some of them I hung out with were guys that had life sentences.
Jason:So you talked at the beginning about having followers. Yeah, right, did you have followers while you were in prison?
Joe:Yeah, After a while it became that because I was a good athlete. So anyone who's a good athlete in prison, it's like junior high. If anyone not even high school, it's like junior high. Anyone who's a good athlete in prison, it doesn't matter what you did in jail. It doesn't matter. So if you were a sex offender or a rapist or whatever you want to be considered so again.
Jason:I'm going to just stop you for a second and we're going to go back to the labels, right?
Joe:So if you're someone who committed a sex offense, if you're someone who committed a sex offense, if you're someone who committed a sex offense in prison, if you're good at sports and you're okay in the law library, you're condescending which is sad.
Amber:And then I wanted to unpack another thing that I heard you say, that when you were in a level two facility you were with people who were not dangerous. This sort of spurred some thinking in me and again, you know, I'm just kind of thinking out loud the idea that people are inherently dangerous or not dangerous. Do you think that that's a static thing or do you think that that is something that fluctuates?
Joe:and changes. It depends on which environment you put a person in, because when you put a person like myself, who's not really dangerous, if you put me in a place like Cold Township, I may have to force or become dangerous to protect myself. So I actually believe that it's the environment that's fostered around a person that can bring that out of a person, because I've seen guys come into the prisons who I know never fought, but they didn't have a choice there right when you say the environment.
Amber:Did that have a lot to do with the culture of the way people were treated? The layout, the, what do you think created an environment?
Joe:the school. Nothing was connected. It was treated like a campus. It wasn't like one static unit, it it was a bunch of different buildings. They had the track in the middle. It made everyone feel like they were at a school rather than being in a prison. Except there were bars and razor wire that if you were conscious enough you would see that, but if you didn't look at that, you almost felt like you were at like a campus.
Amber:So when you were interacting with the staff, what was that like? Because the experiences that we hear from a lot of people has to do with the dehumanization that happens to someone when they're incarcerated. Was there a difference between the interactions with the staff at that facility and the subsequent ones? How did that work?
Joe:I actually like I had maybe two guards in my whole 14 years be like negative towards me, but I watched them be negative towards other people. I watched staff. So really at laurel highlands the staff, they were pretty cool. I actually have to at every facility. I never really had too much trouble with the staff with myself but I watched how they are with other individuals. They treated me because I was a CPS, I was a peer assistant and I was a certified peer specialist, so they treated me a little different and sometimes I didn't like that treatment.
Amber:Did that cause problems for you?
Joe:Sometimes it made guys think like, well, why does this person treat you this way and they treat us that way? And I would have to explain to them.
Jason:Joe, you said you were sentenced to 13 years but was there for 14. You told us a little bit at the beginning. I mean, I've heard of people who are sentenced to 13 and then they serve like half the time. How come you had to serve not only all of it, but a little bit?
Joe:more. See my actual time. In Pennsylvania they give us double time, so I was sentenced to a 13 to 26. So my actual sentence is 26. I see, so you actually served half your time.
Jason:Yes, I served half my time Plus another year Plus another year because I wasn't finished a program and I'm sorry.
Joe:what year did you come out? Last year? November 9th of 2023. 2023.
Jason:So you were. You had a lot of years prior to COVID-19 pandemic, but you were there. Yep, your final years were during the beginning of that pandemic 422 days.
Joe:In a cell with 15 minutes out of the cell, you had to choose 10 minutes. In a cell with 15 minutes out of the cell, you had to choose 10 minutes for a shower or five minutes for a phone, or vice versa.
Jason:So your life towards the end was drastically different. It was strange, and did that impact your ability to finish that program. Was that why you were there an extra year?
Joe:Yes and no. The person that I harmed actually reached out to the Attorney General's office and wrote that I didn't commit the IDSI charge. So I possessed all this paperwork from the attorney general, the district attorney's office. They had wrote me to file an emergency PCRA. So I filed this emergency PCRA but I can't do the program because I'm not admitting to the crime that I'm there for, but I'm admitting to everything else admitting to the crime that I'm there for, but I'm admitting to everything else, right? So in the midst of that, they told the person that I harmed that if she comes to court to testify then a perjury charge would be thrown against her. So she disappeared and it left me in limbo where I would have actually finished the program a year before. I want to make sure.
Jason:I understand. So she wanted to come forward and say you got it wrong. However, if she came forward and said you got it wrong, then she could be arrested herself and get into trouble for a perjury charge, and so they used that rather than just doing the right thing and coming forward. It backfired on you Completely.
Amber:Well and it backfired on her as well.
Joe:Because she wanted to live in truth, she mustered the courage and strength to come out and say listen, I know what happened. Like this is what happened to me. Like that strength that she used to come and go to the district attorney's office on her own, Like this all appeared out of the blue. Good for her, yes, yes.
Amber:Right, and that meant that when you went to the parole board, that you had not finished the program and therefore you were not granted parole because you were serving that 13 to 26. And so, for those who don't understand or haven't been with the system because we have listeners of all kinds what would happen is, if you are serving 13 to 26, when that 13 year comes, you have the opportunity to go in front of the parole board and they can say why? Yes, you've done what you're supposed to do. So talk a little bit about that process, because it's almost in many ways people describe it as like retrying the crime, reopening old wounds after so many years. Talk a little bit about that.
Joe:Well, it's a PA. We have what they call pre-parole, what they call pre-parole. So before you actually see the parole board, they give you four months. Before that they have a few meetings with your counselor, your unit manager, the person that's on the block with you, your unit manager and some staff that are there, and you answer a bunch of questions.
Joe:You go over everything that you're supposed to talk about at the parole hearing, but most of the stuff in pre-parole doesn't align with what you hear in parole, because it's a human endeavor. They're not going to ask you the same questions that these people ask you from four months ago. So really it's like you have to go up there and just be able to speak, and not only just speak convey the language that they taught you. So whatever you learn in programming, you better remember how to convey that message back to them, or else if you don't speak their language, it's considered manipulating the system, which is also a parole hit and can give you another six to 12 months to do on top of that. So if you're not educated or can't speak in front of people, you are like way back.
Amber:So that puts people who might maybe someone has an intellectual disability, Maybe someone has a fear of speaking like, yeah, absolutely so. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. That puts different people in different populations at a significant disadvantage. So you spent the 14 years. Tell us a little bit about release. What does it look like when you're released? It's only been a year, right?
Joe:Yeah, one year.
Amber:So what happens there?
Joe:I was fortunate enough to come home to a community that welcomed me and a family network, but it was different. My mother wasn't here, my brother wasn't here. Life was completely different. I mean, it was a complete shock. Technology had changed. My friends had gotten older, my kids grew.
Jason:Film Courage. I can imagine you go in and you think, 13 years, I'm going to just hit pause and then when I come out, everything is going to be the same, and I'll just start over.
Joe:I come out with the heaviest label in the universe, regardless of how much support I had. I have the heaviest label on earth over Like, regardless of how much support I had. I have the heaviest label on earth over top of my head.
Jason:And did your father pass?
Joe:No, my father's actually doing good. He's actually healthy and he's doing well. He received a kidney transplant. He's healthy and living.
Amber:That's amazing. And so you said you came out to family support. Did you have any struggles trying to find a place to stay? Were there any barriers? No, I didn't have any.
Joe:You were allowed to live with your family and through my t-shirt business. There was another person where I was working at that had a t-shirt business and we were battling over whose t-shirts were better in this facility. Well, I guess I kind of won the battle. So a person that I grew up with and loved dearly, and still do to this day, went to the human resources and said listen, I don't feel safe with Joe Nicholson working in this building. I know his situation and they knew my situation also, because I disclosed everything with them. But she told them that she was going to tell the higher ups and they basically had to turn their back on me.
Amber:Right. And so this is a pretty common story with folks who are in reentry with a variety of labels and convictions, but particularly for individuals who have been convicted of a crime of a sexual nature. And so what were you feeling in that moment?
Joe:I felt for that moment almost hopeless. Like I felt hopeless again. It was like I was just snatched right out of the water. But luckily, my partner and my love of my life, she picked me up out the mud once again and told was like I was just snatched right out of the water. But luckily, my partner and my love of my life, she picked me up out the mud once again and told me like listen, you are more important than what is happening. That had to happen so you could go explain this to people and let them know what this is like living as a reentrant on the registry.
Amber:That's wonderful. When you say your partner is this girlfriend, okay, and so this is obviously a very positive relationship in your life and provides support, so you started to get involved in advocacy.
Joe:Tell us a little bit about that While I was in prison I ran a couple groups and I created a group that we would call Pathfinder while I was in prison to just help guys find paths, develop action plans, reentry plans for success. And I'm actually just trying to bring that concept and program to the street now that I'm out here, because I know that it could help certain individuals, especially those who are just as impacted, and the guys on the registry, because I can put myself in. I'm in your shoes, right. I love the name because everybody has their own path.
Amber:Yeah okay, we got a whole torches for one another. All right, that's beautiful what does it mean?
Joe:like?
Amber:you're creating paths to success.
Joe:Create really creating paths inward so you can create outward. It's's all on you.
Jason:Joe pointed to his shirt and it says Pathfinder. Can you describe it?
Joe:There's a torch here because we have to hold the light up for everybody. Light is truth. The Liberty Bell to represent PA PA, because we're from Pennsylvania, and PA also for peer assistance. We're supposed to assist our peers, you know, and I use the video game font because I like video games.
Amber:There's nothing wrong with that.
Joe:All right, as you think that exactly that's what you are, man. So don't think that you are this, because you are that.
Amber:Is a certain amount of like the Pathfinder program. Does it speak to keeping each other accountable?
Joe:Not, exactly what it is. We have to be accountable. First, we have to look at ourselves in the mirror and say that yes, this is what I did, but allow me to fix that, and I start with myself fixing this.
Amber:Right.
Joe:We can't blame anybody outside of me. We have to start here first, in our center.
Amber:So some of that is based on your own experience of self-reflection and unpacking the layers inside yourself and then creating a mechanism to share that information with other people so that they can follow a similar path.
Joe:Thank you for explaining my thing clearer than what I could explain. That's exactly what it is.
Amber:Oh, I love it. That sounds really exciting. So you were working on that while you were inside and you mentioned we're bringing it to the streets. What does that mean? What format does that look?
Joe:like, my partner is a retired sergeant of 30 years, a police sergeant, and we're going into Chester County Prison to basically give like a pre-season game, to talk to some of the guys who are in the prison to say, hey, do you guys think that this will work in the facility? But we want to do this in front of the staff so they can see that the inmates and the prisoners they actually want this to be implemented in the prisons and right here we hope.
Joe:We hope that it grows. I don't see why it won't or shouldn't, or couldn't, and I'm looking to join other people who are doing the same thing. This is not a one team. It can't be. It's not a one team effort. There's too many people.
Amber:Right, and so you're basically piloting it and then you're getting that feedback from the folks that have been in a similar situation to you.
Jason:Okay, Good, do you want to ask your final?
Amber:question yeah, so we have really appreciated you coming and sharing your story and being so vulnerable today and very excited for the things to come. I have one last question for you before we wrap up our time together, and that is, you know, thinking back on like your younger self right, you've done a lot of that inner work. Is thinking back on your younger self right, you've done a lot of that inner work? If you had a piece of advice for someone who is at the very beginning of a journey similar to your own, what would that be?
Joe:Look at yourself in the mirror every day and tell yourself positive affirmation. Tell yourself positive things, know your value, understand your worth and realize this isn't your worst. This may be your worst, but it's not going to be your worst. It's going to get better in the future. Things are going to happen beneficial for you. As long as you take that and you live by that and don't let anyone sway you from that, you will be good. There's no way the universe works that way. You cannot stop that. So if you keep a positive mentality, positive things will happen. Even if the situation around you is negative, positive things will happen because it's due to you.
Amber:Love that. Jason. You have any last thoughts before we wrap up?
Jason:Last thoughts are. You know, this is the first time, amber, that we've recorded in the same physical presence, right? Right, yeah, we're just groundbreaking over here.
Jason:So I'm going to tell you, in Judaism we have a prayer for and I don't usually do this, but it's fun, it's a shechecheanu. It's like thanks for bringing us to this season. And it goes, which basically means hey, we're here together, thanks. So I want to say thank you. We got to meet you this morning for the first time. I hear your story, joe, from where you've been to where you are is amazing, incredible. You know you had your story. Your story has this. You know it had a big high and then a dip, and now you're. You know you're back on that climb and I see great things for you. You're bringing it back to the community and it's been a pleasure to get to know you.
Joe:Yeah, I really appreciate this and what you guys are doing for us, and I think this is necessary. So I will always be grateful for you guys allowing me to amplify my voice on you guys' podcast, because this is necessary for all of us. It's not just about people in the registry, it's not just about people in prison. This is necessary for everyone to be able to be heard, and not just heard listen to Right, love that and with that Until next time, Amber.
Jason:We'll see you next time. Until next time, Amber.
Amber:We'll see you next time.
Outro:You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. For more information, episodes and podcast notes, visit amplifiedvoicesshow.
