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Amplified Voices
Amplified Voices is a podcast that lifts the voices of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Hosts Jason and Amber speak with real people in real communities to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Together, they explore shared humanity and real solutions for positive change.
Amplified Voices
Justyna: Exposing Inhumane Practices at Rikers Mental Health Unit - Season 5 Episode -5
Join Amplified Voices co-hosts, Amber and Jason for a compelling conversation with Justyna, an inspiring professional dedicated to forensic psychology and social work. Justyna shares her remarkable journey from community-based treatment and social work to her time working at Rikers.
From her academic experiences at John Jay College and Hunter College to her first job in an outpatient program, her passion for helping people thrive is palpable. Justyna provides an enlightening perspective on the importance of supporting people as they navigate the complexities of re-entry, while also addressing the emotional toll it takes on treatment providers.
Our discussion delves deep into the systemic hurdles faced by those re-entering society after incarceration. Justyna sheds light on the harsh realities and counterproductive nature of housing restrictions while addressing emotional strain experienced both by individuals on parole and registries and those who support them. We challenge common misconceptions about conviction registries and emphasize the critical need for public education to enhance community safety.
The conversation also explores Justyna’s time as a clinical supervisor at Rikers Island, where she witnessed people with severe mental health conditions or developmental disabilities being locked in cells without medication or human interaction for weeks and sometimes months. While her intent in taking the job was to bring light to a dark place, it became clear to her that bearing witness on what she saw there was the best way to help.
Motivated by her experiences, Justyna has taken bold steps to sound the alarm on the inhumane treatment of people at Rikers and campaign for systemic change behind the walls and beyond. She has also been focusing on voting rights and education for formerly incarcerated individuals. Her journey highlights the power of advocacy and the importance of using one's voice to drive meaningful change.
Read: Detainees locked in cells for weeks: whistleblower
Watch: Justyna's testimony in front of the Board of Corrections
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories, to have conversations with real people in real communities, a way to help them step into the power of their lived experience? Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.
Jason:Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices. I'm your host, Jason, here with my co-host, Amber. Hello, Amber.
Amber:Good morning Jason.
Jason:Amber. Today we have Justina, hello Justina.
Amber:Hi, good morning. Good morning, justina, good morning.
Jason:Justina, we are going to start with the same question we ask our guests, and that is could you tell us a little bit about your life before you entered the criminal legal system and what brought you into it?
Justyna:Sure, Thank you. So I was always interested in the criminal legal system and criminal justice reform. So I went to school for my undergrad in forensic psychology in John Jay College of Criminal Justice and then for my master's in social work. And once I graduated with my master's in social work, I started working in an outpatient program. Where did you grow up? Where did you grow up? I grew up in New York City.
Jason:You grew up in New York City, right in the city.
Justyna:Yes, in Queens, New York.
Jason:Okay, and then John Jay is in one of the boroughs.
Justyna:Yes, it's in Manhattan All right.
Jason:So then you went straight from undergrad to master's.
Justyna:Yes, and that was also in city. That was in Hunter College.
Jason:Okay, All right. So you went for your first job, and it was.
Justyna:So the first job was an outpatient substance abuse and mental health program with people that are on parole and mandated to treatment.
Amber:And so when you went into that job, what were your expectations? You were really excited. You had just graduated. Now you're doing the work. What happened when you got there? What did you experience?
Justyna:I mean, I didn't know what to expect. I was like really thrown into it, but it was really exciting because, like I said, this was the population that I always wanted to work with and there was never like a time that, like I was afraid to work with this population. Like it was just really like excitement and just being able to work.
Jason:What was that day in the life? Right, You're right out of graduate school, right, and you show up and you're working with somebody who has been in prison, who has now recently been released I'm assuming they're on parole and so they show up. And I mean, what's that dynamic like for you? How did you approach your work? And what's a day in the life?
Justyna:So the day in the life was I had a caseload of clients that I would have to see every day, so I had sessions throughout the day. But, like I said it was, it wasn't definitely what I expected, but it wasn't anything like shocking, like I just viewed these individuals as individuals coming home from prison and we were able to talk, they were able to open up to me, so it was a good experience.
Amber:You mentioned that you had always been interested in this kind of work. Did this come from some life experience? Did this come from a mentor? What got you interested in working with those who are in reentry?
Justyna:It's so hard to say, and a lot of people ask me that it wasn't any kind of particular experience in my life. It's just I don't know. I was always interested in this population and I remember being in grad school and there was another intern from another school and we were just talking about, like the populations we want to work with, and she said, oh, I would never like work with people that have committed sexual offenses she used another term for it, of course and I said, oh, really, I wouldn't mind. So, like it's so hard to say, like I don't know, it was just always this interest that I had.
Jason:Is that the population that you were working with?
Justyna:Yes, so it was people on parole, but mostly people that were convicted of sexual offenses, so the program had a sex offense treatment that I ended up specializing in.
Jason:And you are a treatment provider.
Amber:When you're working in this position, I know that you met a lot of people. How many people were in the program as far as employees? What is the size of the program? So at that time.
Justyna:it was a pretty small program. We just had one location in the city, but I would say how many people this was like 11 years ago it was maybe like seven therapists. I would say it was very small and probably like over 200 or maybe even less clients. The program grew a lot over the past few years.
Amber:What were the kinds of things that people who were in re-entry, who were in this type of treatment, what were the kind of things that they were experiencing in their lives as they were trying to come home?
Justyna:They had a lot of difficulty with housing because of the housing restrictions. They all had to live in the shelter. So that was, I would say, the main concern that would always come up that they did not want to live in the shelter, the conditions of the shelter up that they did not want to live in the shelter, the conditions of the shelter. And for a lot of them, finding employment and just being mandated to a program which they didn't like in the beginning.
Amber:And so, as the person that was helping them sort of emotionally navigate some of those things, what did you find you could be helpful with? Because some of these things are mandated by law. Right, People were living in the shelter. Why Was it because of laws? Was it because of the lack of employment? A combination of all of those things? Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna:Right. So it was because of the laws, of the housing restrictions. They couldn't live close to a school, so they had to live in the shelter. That's where their parole officer would go to see them. So it wasn't even like lack of employment, because some of the clients did have jobs and had places to live at with their families, but because of the restrictions they had to live in those shelters.
Jason:And in New York there's a tiering system. Right, yes, Were you working with people on the three tiers?
Justyna:We did provide sex offense treatment, but it wasn't anything based on the tiers. We have people tier one, tier two, tier three, all the tiers tier one, tier two, tier three, all the tiers.
Amber:And so what is your opinion as a treatment provider of the tiering system in New York?
Justyna:I really think it's not fair, because I did have clients who were a tier three but their offense was not against a child, like it was with an adult, but because they were a tier three automatically they couldn't live by a school, which I thought was so ridiculous. But even if their offense was against the child, like I know, the research that's out there that shows it doesn't do anything to help and it just made my clients more frustrated, hopeless at finding a place to live.
Jason:When you're doing this type of work and you're going in and you're seeing some of these things, does it affect your outlook and your own mental health? Did you feel any issues related to that?
Outro:Yeah, for sure, I definitely felt really bad for my clients you've been listening to amplified voices, a podcast looking the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system.
Justyna:For more information, episodes and podcast notes, visit amplifiedvoicesshow frustration and I felt like I always had to like defend my, and later on I learned that there's people that I can talk to about this and certain people I just can't have those conversations with.
Jason:Did you walk in with preconceived notions, like that whole idea that once a sex offender, always a sex offender those things that we hear out in the world on a regular basis? Did you walk in with those types of, with that type of thinking, or were you somewhere else?
Justyna:yeah, I didn't. Like I said, I thought like everyone could change and I wanted to help everyone. So I didn't have this preconceived like notion, like these opinions. I just believe that, like, every person can change and can have a better life. And that's why I go back to that story with my, with the other intern, which was like I would never work with this population. I was like, oh, like I wouldn't mind.
Jason:Did you have a lot of interaction with parole officers?
Justyna:So at that time, when I first started, I didn't, because we did have a legal liaison who would communicate with parole. They did not allow the therapist to talk to parole, which was good, because the only thing that we reported to parole was if the person is attending and if they've tested positive. We didn't discuss what we're talking about in our sessions, what they're disclosing to us, so the therapist didn't even speak to the parole officers.
Jason:It sounds like there was a big wall between you and those officers, which is not something I'm familiar with. Is that common? Maybe this is a question for Amber, you've seen it more where there is that kind of collaboration between providers and supervision.
Amber:Yeah. So I think it really depends on the program. It depends on what state you're in, what model they're using. There is a model and, justina, I'm sure you're familiar with it, even if you have never worked within the model that is called the containment model, have never worked within the model that is called the containment model. And so the containment model basically has the probation or parole officer, it has the treatment provider and it includes victim advocacy, all working together and having access to information. It's not a model that I think is very productive for the person who is subject to the treatment, because you have probation or parole officers actually sitting in treatment groups, which breaks down this trust between provider, the treatment provider and the client, rather than the individual as the client. So we see that is pretty predominant around the country, in different states, and so it sounds to me, justina, like that was not the model that you were working under.
Justyna:No, it was not and, like I said, I thought it was good that the therapist didn't communicate with the parole officers because, like I said, we didn't disclose anything that the client would tell us if the client was in a new relationship. That is against confidentiality of the client. The only thing we reported was if the person is attending and if they tested positive or negative, because it was a substance abuse program.
Amber:Anything else there was no discussion of and and Justine, I know you and I have had some discussion about some of the struggles you had as a provider trying to work with other service providers who may have had preconceived notions about individuals who have this type of convention, for instance, trying to find somebody housing or trying to refer them to another service. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Justyna:Sure, yeah. So I did find that in New York. Even agencies and organizations that say we hire people that have been convicted of a crime a lot of times they say we'll take everyone except for people on the registry. So sometimes I will try to find programs for my clients where they can attend a training so they can get a job. But they were denied over and over again so it was really hard to find like services for them. Even in those organizations that do help people with a criminal conviction, a lot of times, like I said, they said we take anyone who's been convicted of any kind of crime except for a sex offense.
Jason:We've talked to a lot of people who have had convictions themselves and the collateral consequences of the people in their orbit. And in your case, you're a professional who hasn't committed any offense, but you're operating because you're in this field. You're operating with one hand tied behind your back, right and you've got you said right, you and you've got. Your job is made much more difficult because you're supporting a population that has these barriers placed to them. So it's interesting that the collateral consequences even can go into your personal life and the way you approach your work and your job, because you're basically going above and beyond to do like your peers that are sitting next door don't have those barriers Right, and you have to overcome those barriers just to provide help to your clients and you have to overcome those barriers just to provide help to your clients.
Justyna:Yes, and it was difficult because as I got into this work I learned about a lot of different organizations that help individuals get jobs, trainings. But it was such a barrier because, like I said, they would say we take everyone except for people on the registry and that would get me like really upset and I have to hold my emotions back because I wanted to react in a certain way to them because I would say it's not fair, like they need jobs too. But that didn't help at all and it was hard to find those specific like services for people that I was working with.
Jason:As a trained professional, you're seeing these people and you're probably developing like relationships. I don't want to characterize something yet, but like you're developing like almost professional relationships with people and so you want to help them, but you're struggling to do that.
Justyna:Yeah, I felt really bad. I just felt like it was so unfair and I definitely wanted to do something about it, to change, and that's why I got involved with this organization. I decided to go obtain my PhD because I just saw how these policies and laws that are created do not do anything to help these individuals, and I also teach at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. I teach forensic psychology and this often comes up with the students that I teach. The students are there because they want to work with the forensic population, but they say, yeah, I want to work with everyone except for people that committed a sex offense. And that was very surprising to me, because these are students who want to work with everyone except for people that committed a sex offense. And that was very surprising to me because these are students who want to work in this field and still have such a huge stigma against this population.
Amber:And so where do you think some of these stigmas stem from?
Justyna:Definitely the media and people's perception like they view this population as people that are really like scary. They always ask if I had any safety concerns while I was working with them. So it's definitely like the media and like the image that people are portrayed.
Amber:And was that your experience?
Justyna:No, and I always tell the students and anyone that I talk to like I've never felt unsafe. These are regular people that and I always say you could be on the train and you could be sitting next to one who's committed a sexual offense or another crime and you would never know. Like they do not stand out, they're just regular people coming home from prison trying to rebuild their life. I've always felt safe with my clients and I always talk about how, like I know let's say I was on the train and something would be happening and my client was there like they would be the ones that would try to like help and not try to help.
Jason:Justina, if you were to think back to the number of people in this time period that we're talking about, how many clients would you say you saw? And you're saying zero of those clients caused you any type of issue, never made you feel unsafe, never made you feel like they were going to harass you in any way. That's incredible. But how many Hundreds?
Justyna:Oh yeah, hundreds for sure, because at any time we have over 200 patients, so I've met so many and I've worked there for 11 years, so I probably worked with most of the people convicted of a sexual offense in New York at one point or another. And, yeah, I've never felt unsafe.
Jason:Hey, Amber, you were in the military. Was that as a woman for a number of years? Was that your experience that you never felt unsafe.
Amber:No, not at all. So I think my question becomes what is your response to people that say well, I understand that wasn't your experience and I understand that you know it's really hard for these people, but we're keeping children safe and this is what people deserve. They should have thought of that before they did. X, y, z. Is everybody on the registry?
Justyna:the type of person that's hiding in the bushes ready to grab a child. Was that your experience? Yes, so a lot of people say that, even to today. My students say this, but I always respond with the facts and the research and I tell them what the research says and the studies that have been conducted that know that it's not the person like lurking in the bushes, that a lot of the sexual offenses do happen within the family members, within the home, someone that the child has gained trust. So I always just back it up with the facts, the research.
Amber:And so like, if I'm a parent which I am, and so am I, yeah, so I'm, I'm doing it. Yeah, if someone's out there and they're a parent and they're like, I'm actually um, really concerned about the safety of my child. I think what I just heard you say is that a lot of sexual harm happens within families or with somebody that someone knows. If, if I'm looking at registries, am I looking in the right place? Am I keeping my child safe by doing that?
Justyna:No, because it could be someone in your family that can do something to the child. Like the registry is not a place to use that to see. And I think, like when you're a parent, like of course, you should be worried for your child's safety and you shouldn't, like let your child walk around when they're young anywhere by themselves or allow them to go to someone's house that you don't know, and it's not because that person could have committed a sexual offense, it's just something that you do as a parent. Like you should know the people that your child is around, and that goes for, like, people in the community and your family also, because, like I said a lot of times, it happens within the home.
Amber:So I think, like people are worried about not the wrong thing, but are they're not paying attention to what happens in the home and they're more worried about who's living in their neighborhood the home and they're more worried about who's living in their neighborhood, and so there's this expectation that there's these, there's them, there's those kinds of people that do these kinds of things because it's so abnormal and it's a it can't stop, won't stop that kind of thing when, reality, we've created a culture where sexual harm can happen, and so we need to look at those risks right, like we need to educate our children and our parents and people in general about, like, how this actually happens and what we can do to prevent it. Does that sound right?
Justyna:Yes, and teaching our children not to keep secrets, like having those conversations early on that if you feel uncomfortable, you need to say something.
Amber:I think that is so important, so you were doing this work and you started to see those injustices right, and so you got a little bit more. You got involved with Restorative Action Alliance. You got involved in some of your schoolwork you're teaching at John Jay and then you decided to do something else. Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna:So then I decided to work on Rikers Island. An opportunity came up. I was working in my previous employment for 11 years. I became a clinical director. I specialized in sex offense treatment. So since I was so interested in like criminal justice reform, I thought you know why don't I work on Rikers Island and see how it really is? So then when I do work to change these policies and laws because I've never been incarcerated myself I can talk about that experience and what I saw while I was working there.
Jason:So, justina, rikers Island lives in the imagination of a lot of people because it's in New York and it's featured in movies and different TV shows and things like that. But had you ever been to, where is Rikers Island relative to say, manhattan, like where is Rikers?
Justyna:Island. So Rikers Island is in Queens but it's on the other side of Queens where I live and it's an island, so it's kind of like removed from everyone. It's not easy to get there. You have to take like a bunch of buses, it's just, it's away and like a lot of people know about Rikers Island but have not ever been to Rikers.
Jason:So when you decide I'm going to go work there, that's going to be are you a little bit nervous at first? And just to go for an interview, you've got to go through what you just described, which is it's got to be kind of a weird experience. No, yes.
Justyna:So I was definitely nervous because I did read about Rikers. I always kept up with the articles on the news and everything that was going on, but I thought it wasn't going to be as bad as it was because I was working directly in the mental health units. So a lot of things that you hear about Rikers like the violence it usually happens in general populations. You don't really hear much about the mental health units and these are specialized units and they said they're a lot safer People. The patients there are able to get their medications. So like I think that's what I told myself and this is what I was told that it's. It's a little different from like general population.
Jason:What year is this?
Justyna:So this is 2023, december 2023.
Jason:So not that long ago. So you're talking at the last year, at the end of last year, less than a year ago, so in December 2023. So not that long ago. So you're talking at the end of last year, less than a year ago, so in December 2023. So it's still relatively fresh in your mind. So you're going to go there, for did you interview there before you work there? Yes, so tell us about yeah tell us about, walk us through your thought process and that day that you're going for the interview.
Justyna:So I interviewed first on Zoom and then my second interview was on the island. It was a little different than what I expected and we went on different units and I met the patients there and it was fine. And I think my concern was how am I going to feel working there? Am I going to feel comfortable? And when I did interview, I did feel comfortable. A lot of the patients came up to me, spoke to me and I didn't feel uncomfortable. So I was like, okay, I can do this. However, at that time I didn't know everything else. I didn't know how the staff is, how the officers are. I was just happy that I was. I felt comfortable being around the patients.
Amber:Okay, and so I remember, justina, when you said that you were considering doing this, because we've known each other for a little while, and I remember thinking to myself, oh wow, I don't know everything that you hear about Rikers, all of those things and I was like, wow, good for you wanting to change things from the inside. And so was that your intention. You thought you would be able to bring some sort of empathy or compassion to folks who really needed it in a dark place.
Justyna:Yes, that was why I decided to do it. I really thought I could make change from the inside and help those individuals.
Amber:And tell us. So. You interview, you get the job, you show up, it's day one and you're ready to help. What happens?
Justyna:So on the day one I felt optimistic. I met the patients. I ran into a lot of my old patients from the program that I was working with, people on parole which I was happy to see them but not happy to see them in that kind of setting. But I was very surprised how many people I ran into those first few days. It was like orientation. It's just really when I started doing the work, that's when I really saw what was going on there so what was going on there?
Justyna:so I saw that a lot of people were being locked in and this was most shocking, even like in my first few days when I saw these individuals in their cells with feces all over, with flies like that was shocking to me because I've never seen people live like this. I've seen homeless people. I ride the New York City train every day and I just I've never seen people like this. But then, as time went on, I saw okay, they're being locked in for another week, and another week I saw all these patterns.
Amber:And what were the causes? Again, just for people who may not be familiar or understand mental illness or anything like that, was this a safety measure? Was this necessary because somebody was acting out in a violent way and so they're getting locked in and then that that's the barrier, don't we have to do that?
Justyna:So no, it wasn't Now. Of course, when they did a use of force, they locked the individual in, but those are not the individuals that I'm speaking about and that didn't happen. Often I found, as I continued to work there, that it wasn't valid reasons. A lot of times it's so hard to say and I get asked this all the time but it's so hard to say what the exact reasons were, because I don't really know because this was not documented anywhere. So when I came into work and somebody was locked in and I would ask the officers, they were like, oh yeah, he did something, but we're not sure because we weren't here yesterday so it was really hard. But it was reasons, as I've seen clients get locked in because they got loud with an officer, they raised their voice, they were like demanding, they were acting like odd, like reasons for that. It wasn't that they were a safety, there was a safety concern to the unit and what are the actual rules within the facility?
Amber:I can't imagine that the rules say that somebody should be locked in a cage for weeks on end, particularly somebody with mental illness.
Justyna:So no you're not supposed to lock anyone in with a severe mental illness, the individuals that I worked with. They had diagnosis of schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar depression, and those individuals are not supposed to ever be locked in. So those were the rules and, like I stated, the officers knew that these were the rules and this is why they never documented it. When they sprayed someone and there was a use of force, they had to fill out paperwork and I've seen them fill it out. However, when they were locking someone in and they use the term deadlock they never documented it and there were different officers almost every day, so it was really difficult to know exactly what happened when we were not there, the mental health staff.
Jason:Yeah. So, Justina, fast forward and then come back for a second. If I fast forward, you've since left Rikers. You've been in the news several times over the last week because you have gone public with what you've seen and observed while you were there and these horrific conditions, so what you're describing. It sounds like there's a disconnect between the policies that they have in place to handle and what was actually happening in practice, and Amber had made a comment a few minutes ago about you were going to go in to try to change things from the inside, which it sounds like probably seemed too big for you to be able to change from the inside. Why do you think this was happening? Is it because they've got quote bad people running the show who just want to harm other people? Are they not trained properly? Is there not enough staff? What's going on and what are you observing?
Justyna:So I do think that it's definitely lack of training. The officers do not understand mental health. Also, some of the officers wanted me to send certain patients to general population and will make statements like oh, he's not really mentally ill, he's faking it, when this person was and had a documented history of a severe mental illness. It's lack of training, I think also definitely lack of staff. Sometimes it was only one officer on the floor. There's always supposed to be two and I think it's easier for people to just lock someone in and not deal with them and, I think, support from their captains and supervisors.
Justyna:A lot of the officers work many shifts, like even three shifts in a row, because there's lack of staff and they're tired and overwhelmed. And I've heard from officers that, let's say they have an event that they are supposed to go see their child perform, they can't say no. If they're told, like you have to do overtime, we need you, they can't say no. I have something going on and they voiced this to me because there were times, you know, we would speak about these issues. So it's definitely lack of training.
Amber:They don't understand mental illness and support and lack of staff and do you think some of the culture of the facility itself contributes to the lack of staff? Because we want to be clear, like it's not a funding issue, it's just a lack of people who are willing, because, again, as we spoke about before, when you even say Rikers Island, whether you're a social worker, you're a corrections officer, someone who might find themselves locked up there, nobody's saying yay, hey, let's go do this.
Justyna:Does that feel right? Yes, it does. And I remember anytime that there's a new class that comes in of correction officers, everybody says it and we see it that they only last like a few days and then they say I don't want to do this anymore. So it's definitely the culture and I think people don't understand, like I said, say I don't want to do this anymore. So it's definitely the culture and I think people don't understand.
Justyna:Like I said, the correctional officers don't understand mental illness.
Justyna:So they may think, oh, this person is an a-hole or something because this is how they're reacting.
Justyna:But it's not because of that, it's because of their mental health. And I think the way they look at these individuals, they come in already with a bias. They're like this person is a criminal, they're just trying to get over. So then they react to that individual in a certain way and then, of course, the patient will react back in a certain way. So I think they already come with this bias and I've seen some officers very few that were really great and like the way they spoke to the patients and even provided them really good, helpful advice, but that was very few and those officers did not have any problems with the patients there because they spoke to the patients like they're human beings and those patients did not cause any problems for them. I think the problem also is a lot of the officers think that they can talk to these individuals in any kind of way and the individual the patient is not supposed to react is a problem, because if you're going to disrespect someone, like what do you expect them to do? They're going to say something back.
Amber:And do you think that Rikers Island is the right place for someone with a mental illness?
Justyna:No, no, I feel like, from what I saw in those nine months, it makes the individual worse. I've seen patients locked in for weeks, even months, like I stated smearing feces, cursing, yelling, and what happens is and this goes back to the lack of understanding of mental health If they lock someone in for a few days because that person has made some threats nothing physical that individual now has no access to their medications because the medications come on the floor and is locked in a cell. So they began to decompensate and then they begin to smear feces and maybe get aggressive. So the officers say we can't let this individual out because they're smearing feces. Yes, they're smearing feces because they're locked in. And they'll say we can't let this individual out because they're aggressive and they're screaming and cursing, yes, because they're locked in. So there's such a huge disconnect.
Amber:So it becomes a vicious cycle, it seems.
Justyna:Yeah. So they'll use that as an excuse. No, we can't let him out. Now he's flooding his cell and they say he likes to play with shit. They don't say smearing feces, they use that term playing with shit. So they'll say, yeah, no, we can't let him out. He's playing with shit. Yes, because he's locked in. So there's just such a huge disconnect.
Jason:If you, justina, could redesign the process, the system like, what would it look like? How would it be different?
Justyna:Yeah, so definitely the officers would have more mental health training to be able to recognize like signs and symptoms of a mental illness and just not be able to lock anyone in. And, like I said, those officers that I met, who were great very few, I would say like three of them like the way they interacted with the patients like made such a difference. I remember there was one officer on my unit and he was the only one which meant that the unit was on red status and I observed how he spoke to the patients and, like I said, he gave them really good, valuable advice. He spoke to them with respect, he was able to deescalate A lot of them don't know how to deescalate and there was no issues on the unit the whole day and like he was playing chess with them in the middle of the unit, being the only officer on the floor because he knew how to deescalate.
Jason:So in the environment you're in, it sounds like de-escalation has a lot to do with seeing these people as human beings, regardless of the situation and the context. Right that they're human, and treating somebody like you might treat a family member and figuring out how do I get through to them in this moment, by whatever that means, approaching them where they are and calming the situation down. But in a typical prison situation you are going to, by nature of that, you do as I tell you type of thing, and when you don't, that's where the escalation comes from and it just makes things much worse. That's the training that you're talking about yes and not to take things personally.
Justyna:I found that the officers a lot of times took things personally. So if the patient is cursing, yelling at them, they take it so personal and they say he's not really mentally ill. He knew exactly what he was doing, so let's lock him in because he called me so and so when it's no, this person is mentally ill so like it's 2024 now, but you were there in 2023.
Jason:there have been calls to shut down Rikers Island. There's all this media attention, even before your story, and we know better as a society. So do you have any theories for why we can't get there, for why we can't get this training and what's going on?
Amber:I like the way you framed the question, but I also think is there space to consider the fact that maybe jails and prisons in general are not the place for people with mental illness Because, again, just by the nature of being in a prison, you are treated in a certain way. It is a certain type of culture, it's criminalization of behaviors that, honestly, can be harmful, like we're not here to say that sometimes behaviors are not harmful. How do we create a space that keeps people safe? Right, and that means everyone, that means the people who are caring for the people who are suffering from mental illness. Does that look like a jail or prison?
Justyna:I don't think so. I think they should not be in a jail or prison. However, since they are like, these are the suggestions that I have. Right, but they can understand mental illness, but no, they shouldn't be there at all. I don't think a jail or a prison could ever be able to care for these people the way that they should be cared for. But unfortunately, people with a mental illness, they get sent to jail, and I remember every patient that I met on my unit with a severe mental illness. When they were arrested for the crime, all of them were not on their medications. I've never met one individual who told me like yeah, I committed this crime, I was arrested, but I was taking my meds and I had a stable place to live. All of them were off their medications. So I don't think that they should be sent to jail. They should really be in a psychiatric hospital where they can receive the treatment that they need.
Amber:And so what you mentioned and I meant to ask you then, but you mentioned that some of the individuals that you had worked with previously you saw them at Rikers Was that related to technical violations? Had they committed new crimes? Do you even know Like? Why do you think that was happening? People?
Justyna:on parole no longer get incarcerated for technical violations in New York, which is great. But the people that I saw come back, it was because a lot of times they were not on their medication, they did not have stable housing and another crime was committed, but it was because of all those things happening. A lot of them were homeless, off their medications. Using drugs didn't have the supports that they needed in the community to be successful.
Amber:I understand. That's very interesting, because that's some of the things that most re-entry professionals and social scientists and all of the research tells us that the way to be successful in reentry is to have the support that you need. But I don't understand why people think this is rocket science. It's not surprising that if you think about your own life right, if you are struggling to find a place to lay your head, you might find yourself in desperate situations where you act like you wouldn't normally act. If you are living under an oppressive situation where people may act out against you because they believe something about you that may not be who you are, you may act accordingly. Does that, does that feel like a clear characterization?
Justyna:Yes, yes, that's exactly what happened to those individuals.
Jason:Yeah, I would say, though, Amber. The only spin I would put on that, though, is that there are other. There are people who have been in the same situation as someone, who does end up acting out, who don't act out, and then they say look, how come? How come I was able to do it, but they aren't. So I think that's you got there's everybody. Everybody reacts differently, and nobody has the exact same situation as anybody else, so we do have to be careful with those, and I think, justina, it's interesting so you were there for nine months was your breaking point? What happened?
Justyna:I mean I don't know. I don't know if it was one moment it was just seeing what is going on and me not being able to help. I mean, there's a few instances where I was just like I need to get out of this. This is just not fair. I've made progress with patients and then over the weekend something happened and now the person's back locked in and I have to start from the beginning. So there were a lot of moments like that.
Amber:And who determines how people get unlocked, like so, if they're deadlocked, who says, okay, now we can let the guy out or person out.
Justyna:Yeah, sorry. So the officers do so a lot of times we would coordinate with the officers. There were a few officers very few on our, on my unit who we knew allow everyone to be locked out. So a lot of times we had to wait for those officers to come in. We knew their schedules, so we would say, okay, tomorrow, so-and-so is back to work, and then let's talk to them tomorrow, because we know they let the guys out and we'll advocate. However, the next day maybe one of the officers was out A lot of times because of the shortage of officers, they were put in another unit.
Justyna:So then we would have to wait till like the next day. Sometimes they were on vacation. So we had to like really strategize because we knew, yeah, this person is never letting them out, so let's not even ask. But so, and so is coming later, let's ask them. And the patients even knew that I had a lot of guys on my unit that were like higher functioning and they would also complain and say you see, we need to get this person out. Do you see how they're like living? This is horrible. So, and so is coming later, let's ask them.
Amber:Like the patients were very involved in this as well, and so these weren't being based on like professional decisions but like personal style of whatever it was that, however the particular corrections officer operated. Some people were more open to unlocking than others, when really it seems like a better way to do that would be upon recommendation of a treatment provider.
Justyna:Yes, and mental health never suggested for anyone to be locked in and we were told by our director supervisors that we can never, ever even make that suggestion. That's not something we believe in, so we would never suggest for someone to be locked in. Um, there were some mental health staff that did, but overall this is what we were told and then we will try to talk to the officers to allow the individual out. And it was really hard because a lot of times we had to go to the patient and say please don't scream, for today Don't bang so and so is coming tomorrow We'll ask them, but, like for one day, can you just not bang or scream. And that was really difficult because already that person was decompensated.
Amber:So they didn't have the capability, exactly, yeah.
Justyna:And a lot of times what would happen is we would send our patients to Bellevue. Bellevue has a prison ward where they take our patients, so when somebody was locked in the cell for weeks and decompensated, we would send them to Bellevue. We would do a referral. A lot of times Bellevue would send the individual back because that person, in order to be admitted to Bellevue, would have to be admitted involuntarily, and there's a specific criteria they have to meet be a danger to themselves or someone else.
Justyna:A lot of the patients decompensated but were not a danger to somebody else and therefore Bellevue was not able to admit them. So then they would go back and a lot of the patients had have had a 7 30 order, which means they were unfit to proceed with their court proceedings. So they were waiting to go to omh and we were hoping okay, this person is high on the list, hopefully they'll go to omh any day now, because we've sent them to bellevue but bellevue didn't accept them. They're still locked, locked in. There's nothing else we can do, so just to be clear Rikers is a jail.
Amber:It is a lot of people there are pre-trial. Is that correct? Yes, so you know we're talking about people who are awaiting trial and that is being held up because they're being put in a situation that is causing them to decompensate.
Justyna:So it's not being held up because of that. The wait list to OMH is long. It's about four months.
Amber:And what is OMH? For those who don't know.
Justyna:Okay, office of Mental Health. So they either are sent to Kirby Forensic, psychiatric or Mid-Hudson, and I've seen many of my patients come back from those hospitals and they're completely different people because they're not locked in, they have access to their medications, they attend groups, they receive treatment, and it's people that I can't even recognize them when they come back.
Jason:Wow, that's crazy. And so then you, you leave, your, you make the difficult decision to to leave the job. And then you decided how long did it take you to decide to go public with the story?
Justyna:So I already knew I was going to do this before I left. Like I had this plan, like that was one of the reasons that I left, because I did say to myself I can do more about this from the outside. So that was like a reason to leave. I could never do this while I was still working there because of retaliation and backlash. So I already had that plan. I've already spoken to people and then I received another job so I was able to resign. So right after my last day, like I started working on this.
Jason:Did you let your new employer know you were going to be going public? Okay, and then, so, then you did. So what was that like? Were you nervous and what were you? What was happening?
Justyna:like Were you nervous and what were you? What was happening? I was. I was nervous, but I got connected to lawyers and who have all of their clients on Rikers Island, so they knew exactly. You know what was going on. They did not know that this was going on in the mental health units. They were not surprised just because of how Rikers is, but they did not know all the specifics and they even said that they would always advocate for their clients to go to the mental health units because they believe that these units were safe.
Jason:Yeah, that's what you were told before you took your job, right?
Justyna:Yes, so they were like shocked but not surprised, because it's Rikers and they were very supportive. They've been with me every step of the way. They're the ones that connected me to the daily news, to New York One News. They helped me write my testimony when I testified before the board of correction. Yeah, they were, they were with me through every step, when I was doing the interview. They were with me also. So I felt really supported and that helped so much because I don't know if I could be able to do this on my own. I don't know what. I didn't even know what to do, like where to go, who to talk to. They deal with these cases, they have these contacts and they were able to connect me.
Jason:So would you describe the last week? What has your, what's your life been like and what has the response been?
Justyna:Yeah, so it's been a crazy week for sure. The response has been very positive. So many people have reached out to me or so happy that I came forward. Like I received so much support and love and it's been great. Thank God I'm not there because in Rikers because, like I said, I can't imagine doing this while I was there, like I don't, I would never do it, like I wouldn't be safe doing it I did hear like a lot of talk about me in the jail, because I do have a friend that still, like, works there. I have actually two friends that still work there, so they've told me like what is being said. So I'm just grateful that I'm not there. But, yeah, I received a lot of support from a lot of people.
Amber:And do you anticipate there as you mentioned, you testified in front of the Board of Corrections there is talk of an investigation that is going on.
Justyna:Are you hopeful that, in speaking out that there will be, transparency and also change, yes, so I'm happy that they're willing to do an investigation, and this is why I want to continue speaking out about this, because I don't want this story to die down and then, you know, the officers go back to doing what that is quo. Yes, so I'm going to continue speaking out about this. I'm going to be meeting with different people to address this and continue to talk about it so that an investigation is done.
Amber:And I. What is it that drives you so when you you know the day you're leaving? You have had, you've met, a lot of these people who are incarcerated and in the mental health unit there. What were your feelings about? Like leaving them behind?
Justyna:I was so sad and it was so hard to make the decision to resign because I did feel guilty. I was like I'm just giving up. There's not many people there that really want to help and I just felt such guilt, I'm just giving up. But that's why I promised myself, even if I leave, I'm gonna do something about this. And just because I'm leaving there does not mean that I'm not still trying to help those individuals that are there. It's just I'm doing it in a different way, in a way that's more effective.
Justyna:Yeah, it seems like you're going to have a much larger impact than you were able to have from the inside Right, and that's what I thought about when I made that decision. There's just such a little change that I can make on the inside, but I can make a bigger change being on the outside and that's what drove my decision to resign. And I remember my last day, the patients from my two units. They made me like beautiful cards that they worked on in their art group for a long time, like they wrote really nice things, they colored it. It was so nice and I was like, yeah, this is exactly why I'm doing this to help those individuals.
Amber:And I think that I do have to say what you're doing is amazing and we're very proud to have you on the board of Restorative Action Alliance and all of the work that you have done and are continuing to do. Absolutely, what do you think like your trajectory looks like? I know that you've you're working on your PhD. I believe you're doing some things around voting rights for people who are formerly incarcerated. Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna:Yes. So I'm really interested in voting rights for justice. Impacted individuals, impacted individuals. And this goes back to the job where I was working with people on parole. I found out that most of them did not know that they can even vote in New York, and in New York, once you're released from incarceration, your voting rights are restored right away. And I also noticed that a lot of my coworkers working with that specific population didn't know either.
Justyna:And for me, I think it's so important to be able to vote, because that's how you get your voice back, especially when you're reintegrating back into the community, into the society. So about a few weeks ago, I did do a voting event. I went back to my old job and they allowed me to register the clients that are coming into the program. A lot of them come in person, they do group, they do individual sessions and I was able to register them. And Reform Alliance, which I got involved with over the summer, helped me and sponsored that event, and it was great because I've met individuals that never voted in their life. For example, one client in particular. He was incarcerated for 21 years and before he was incarcerated he never voted, and this was the first time that he was able to vote and he was just so excited and I was so happy to be able to like share that moment with him and register him.
Amber:That's amazing, and I think that in our, in my travels, in my experience, I do meet a lot of people who either a think that it's not available to them because that messaging is out there, because it's different in different areas, and or say, why should I vote? Because nobody cares about me and my voice won't be heard. What is your sort of response to that?
Justyna:Yes, I try to educate them that, no, your voice is can be heard.
Justyna:And I think also because these individuals have been incarcerated and even before they were incarcerated they felt like their voice doesn't matter because of their personal experiences just with the system with mass incarceration. They feel like it doesn't because of their personal experiences just with the system with mass incarceration. They feel like it doesn't. Their voice is not heard, and I totally understand where they're coming from. But I try to educate them on, like, the importance of voting and that their vote does matter, especially in like local elections in the communities that they live in, like they can make a difference. And if everybody thinks that my voice doesn't matter, then like nobody would vote, it would vote and then the elections would be different. So I just try to educate them and tell them how important it is that before recently people on parole were not able to vote and because of mass incarceration, most people that are incarcerated a large number are people of color where one time in history they were not able to vote either. So it's it's very important.
Amber:Yeah, thank you so much. That's really exciting and, again, I think the combination of all the things that you're doing will really make a big difference for a lot of people. Will really make a big difference for a lot of people. So if you were speaking to someone who was at the very beginning of a journey that is similar to yours and you had one piece of advice for them in 30 seconds, what would that be?
Justyna:So I think the advice I would give them is not to give up and that sometimes you may think like you can't make a change, but you really can. You can. You just have to believe in yourself and never give up. There were times where I felt like why am I doing this? Maybe I should just put Rikers behind me, like it was traumatizing. But then I always remember like what I'm doing this for and who I'm doing this for remember, like what I'm doing this for and who I'm doing this for Love.
Jason:That, jason. Any last thoughts? Sure, I think. Justina thanks for coming on, and as I listened to your story, I knew a little bit hearing more of it today. I know it's very difficult. It's very easy for somebody to say, oh yeah, I would just leave that job or I would just walk away. The idea that you actually had the courage to both leave the job that you had and then to actually do something, to take a stand, to figure out how to mobilize resources around you and to get the word out in a way that's effective and productive, that's going to see real change, I think it's something that you should be really proud of. I'm glad to know you and I'm glad that we're working with you, and thank you for being on the podcast today.
Justyna:Thank you so much for this opportunity. This is my first podcast talking about this, so that's really exciting, and I definitely wanted to do it with you guys.
Jason:Appreciate it Won't be the last.
Justyna:Yeah, definitely. There'll be more talks and more events that I will be joining that I'm really excited about. To like continue spreading this information, thank you so much, Justina.
Amber:Thank you.
Jason:Until next time, Amber.
Amber:We'll see you next time.
Outro:You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast listing the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. For more information, episodes and podcast notes, visit AmplifiedVoicesshow you.
