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Amplified Voices
Amplified Voices is a podcast that lifts the voices of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Hosts Jason and Amber speak with real people in real communities to help them step into the power of their lived experience. Together, they explore shared humanity and real solutions for positive change.
Amplified Voices
Shawn: Creating Community, One Mom's Response to Crisis - Season 5 Episode 4
What if a single phone call could turn your entire world upside down? In this heartfelt episode of Amplified Voices, Amber and Jason are in conversation with Shawn Barrera-Leaf, whose family faced a seismic shift in August 2017. Just as Shawn was preparing for her eldest son's wedding, she received the shocking news that her youngest son, an aspiring doctor, had been arrested on a serious charge. Listen as Shawn opens up about the initial shock, confusion, and emotional turmoil that enveloped her family during this unimaginable time.
Join us as we navigate the complexities of the criminal legal system through Shawn's eyes. She shares the family's journey through accountability, court proceedings, the significant financial and emotional strains, and the critical role of mental health counseling in helping them cope. You'll hear about the stark realities of mandatory minimum sentencing and the often-overlooked human aspects of legal battles. Shawn's story sheds light on the resilience required to endure and the importance of supportive people and networks that provided solace during their darkest days.
In the latter part of our conversation, we explore Shawn's inspiring involvement in advocacy work. Discover how connecting with Michigan Citizens for Justice and founding United Voices for Sex Offense Reform provided her with a sense of purpose and community. Celebrate with us the power of unity and collective action as we reflect on the hope and strength that can emerge from connections amidst significant adversity.
About Shawn:
Shawn Barrera-Leaf, a Michigan native, began her journey into criminal justice advocacy in 2017 when her son’s conviction drastically altered their lives.
As the Executive Director of United Voices for Sex Offense Reform (UV4SOR) a national nonprofit, Shawn leads the organization to challenge punitive laws, raise awareness about the harm inflicted by the carceral system, and promote healing. UV4SOR’s advocacy efforts convey that justice is not about retribution, but about restoring dignity, hope, and the belief in second chances. She serves on the board of CURE-SORT and is actively involved in the steering committee of the National Coalition Against Conviction Registries comprised of 30+ organizations working together to abolish the Sex Offense Registry and its regime. Shawn can be reached at sbleaf@uv4sor.org or through the
website UV4SOR
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories, to have conversations with real people in real communities, a way to help them step into the power of their lived experience? Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.
Jason:Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices. I'm your host, Jason, here with my co-host, Amber. Good morning, Amber.
Amber:Good morning Jason.
Jason:And today, amber, we have Shawn Barrera-Leaf. Good morning Amber. Good morning Jason. And today, amber, we have Sean Barrera-Leap. Good morning Shawn.
Shawn:Good morning, Jason and Amber Good morning, Shawn.
Amber:We're so excited to have you here this morning.
Shawn:I'm very excited to be here. Thank you so much.
Jason:It's great to have you, sean Somebody just full disclosure here, sean, someone that Amber and I both have known before this podcast recording, so it's a pleasure to be speaking with her and getting to hear a little bit about her story. But, sean, the question for you is the same that we ask every guest to start off is could you tell us a little bit about your life before entering the criminal legal system and what brought you into it?
Shawn:Of course, my husband and I raised our children in a small rural community here in northern Michigan, and both our children had graduated high school both who graduated from one from Michigan State University, the other from University of Michigan and we were empty nesters. So we were in the process of welcoming my bonus daughter. My oldest son was getting married in October of 2017. So we were just plugging along, working hard. My husband and I were contemplating on maybe moving away from the area to find a second home, someplace warmer, and just helping our kids out and enjoying our community.
Jason:Helping our kids out and enjoying our community, and so life was good. And you just thought we're going to enter the next phase of our lives. What happens?
Shawn:That's my before and after, as you just explained, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this, but we were plugging away. Like I said, we were welcoming my bonus daughter, so there were a lot of preparations that were going on. I was getting some grief because it was the end of August and I still hadn't found my dress yet for the wedding, so I was getting a little amber my peel to relate to that, but I was getting a little grief from people. It was like, okay, I got to do this.
Shawn:So I was focused on wedding preparations and, ironically, august 31st, 2017, is our anniversary for when the criminal justice legal system impacted our family, and my husband and I had a missed phone call from our youngest son, who is impacted, and he was arrested and we're like. So our first thought was okay and we're like. So our first thought was okay drunk driving. He was working third shift in our local hospital because he was on his way to medical school and I thought, maybe drugs. It was unlikely. The thoughts in our heads were as far from what actually happened. It was over Labor Day weekend. We went through the process, we went through his arraignment and when we found out what was happening. He was here in the state of Michigan. We have sexual harm convictions that are called criminal sexual conduct, and we found out at that time that he was getting charged with a CSC-2. And it just blew our mind.
Jason:We're just like what is going on here, so I want to roll back for a second. You get a call from your son.
Amber:So you'd missed the call. So you're like, oh, I need to call him back, like what's happening?
Shawn:Right, we missed the call. The voicemail message that he was in jail. He had already been arrested.
Jason:You hear this message. You're telling us you're prepping for a wedding which is a joyful, joyful and stressful time.
Amber:Joyful All of those.
Jason:Exactly so. You're preparing for this wedding and at the same time, you have your younger son who is on a path to become a doctor. Like it's a mother's dream, right? Everything's going well and you get a call that he's been arrested. What is happening in your mind? How did you react? What's going on?
Shawn:I was angry because I firmly believed it was something that was alcohol related or drug related, and I was upset because we'd been pretty adamant, especially with how serious drinking and driving laws are, and he had a whole future ahead of him. Just please, if you need a ride home, call us. So I was thinking how could he be so stupid? We've been very open with this. And so, yeah, that was what we were thinking and we're like, okay, let's go bail him out, see what we can do here. His bail there was no bail. His bond was very high.
Shawn:Did you like get in the car and drive to the police station? I called the police station because, like I said, we live in a fairly small community and I wasn't unfamiliar with the legal system here in our community. I worked with attorneys, I did some contract work for some attorneys, so I was familiar with the processes. So I called up to the jail and I first of all said he was my son there and they asked me the name and they confirmed that he was and I said what is he being held for?
Amber:And he wouldn't tell me oh, so now you've got a whole can of worms of an imagination just going around in your head.
Shawn:Yes, and I said can we come get him? And he said no, and it's Labor Day weekend and this is Friday. He got arrested on a Friday, so this is Saturday morning.
Jason:Oh boy.
Shawn:So we're like, okay. So then we thought we have to get an attorney involved, because I was still thinking other than what he was charged with. I was still thinking it had to do with drugs. I thought maybe he was trying to sell drugs. I had no idea and my husband and I were just like grasping at straws. So we called an attorney who we were familiar with who dealt with more so alcohol and drug related charges and convictions. So we called him up. He's a friend of ours. He says I'll call over there and see what's going on. He called over there and then he says I'm going to go and talk to your son. He says I want you guys to meet us at the jail.
Jason:So then we're like oh boy, okay, so you get there, and the drive there must've been a little nerve wracking.
Shawn:We were still bewildered. We're just like something is off here, something is definitely not clicking. And again, I had no idea the seriousness and I look back on some of the conversations that I had and it's still, I think, more so, just because I was in shock and I couldn't believe that they're holding my son. They wouldn't tell me what's going on and basically because he was 24 years old at the time and he was an adult, and so they're not going to tell us anything.
Shawn:So our attorney went and talked to him and he came back out and he said what he was arrested for. And I just looked at him. I said that's crazy, there's got to be a mistake here. And the first thing I thought of Jason and Amber was his career. His career is gone, and that's when things were just starting to play out and I'm like we have to do it. This can't be happening. We've got to. This has to stop.
Shawn:And so my husband and I waited until paper day, that Tuesday morning when he was getting arraigned, because they set his bond at it was like $500,000. And we're just looking at that and we're like there's no way. There's no way we can do anything here. There's no way. There's no way we can do anything here. So we went to his arraignment Tuesday morning and the judge that was there was a substitute judge. He had already retired within their community. He knew our family and he set my son's bond. He gave him a personal recognizant bond and let him come home. So we picked him up Tuesday morning and after the arraignment and on the way home, we're just like silent. I think we were just all trying to process what was going on and I remember thinking at that time okay, step one is done. Okay, let's just get home and see what we need to do.
Jason:So you had said before that you were angry with him when you thought it was like drunk driving. Now you're in this phase. It sounds like you had converted over to mission mode. How do we fight this? That's the sense I'm getting from what you're saying, but what's the emotion for you? Are you still angry and trying to help solve what's going on and what's happening as a mother in this instance?
Shawn:Jason, I think as a mom, I was looking at how can we resolve this. If this is true, what you're being charged with, you have some accountability here, but how can we minimize the impact? This is going to have on your life.
Jason:And I don't want to go too far into this, but was this like a hands-on offense, where there was an actual, tangible person that you could say this is the victim, or was it something different?
Shawn:There was a tangible person involved, and it was a family, a person in our community that we knew.
Jason:Okay.
Amber:So I just want to thank you, sean, for sharing some of the ways that you were feeling, because I know that a lot of people who listen to our podcast, who are family members of individuals who have found themselves in similar situations, can really resonate. I know for myself, like this feeling of complete shock Okay, this bomb is here and what do I do? I know my experience was okay. Now I got to do you go into this weird survival mode that you're like okay, I understand what's happening, I'm still numb and I don't really know what's going on. But now I got to make phone calls, I got to find an attorney, I got to be there at the arraignment and all of this is manifesting and adding up in your body as you're going along. But you don't have time for that. Does that feel like a correct?
Shawn:characterization Exactly. It's amazing how your body does take over in those aspects and you really don't think, you just do, and there were so many situations that you think about okay, just doing the mundane routine things, this is okay, let's just get. Let's get things this is okay, let's just get dinner done, let's talk about this.
Jason:You still need a dress for the wedding. Exactly Right.
Shawn:And I had a wedding shower that we were hosting, and that was my thoughts. Okay, every day there was something that needed to be done, not only with what was going on with my son, but with my older son's situation too, and the hardest thing for me was not trying to have this piece, such a black cloud, over this happy time in my older son's life.
Jason:Right. And so how did it impact? The older son Was the family of your new daughter-in-law. Were they like, hey, maybe this isn't right? What happened?
Shawn:Fortunately, with that, everyone was very supportive. Both my sons are very close and it was like what it was, very like. This is so odd. But then, as things started progressing, people were especially my daughter-in-law's family and my oldest son. They were extremely supportive, helpful, but I put it on myself that I didn't want them to be hindered with this, knowing what they were planning. I just thought, okay, we got to get through this wedding. That was my whole focus. Let's get through this wedding and then we're going to deal.
Jason:How could you not Like if I'm your older son and now my brother is going through this like during this time that's supposed to be so wonderful for me? That's got to be tough.
Shawn:And he was in the wedding too. So we had police. But the thing that bothered me the most was I was so very appreciative that the judge recognized this person has never been in trouble with the law at all, the bond that was set on him was really out of reach and that he didn't feel that there was any flight risk. That did not sit well with the prosecutor, of course, right Right.
Shawn:So when he was released, I was so over the weekend because, like I said earlier, my son had third shift working at the hospital. He missed three days of work. So my husband was calling the hospital and just saying we have a situation here. He'll report back to work Tuesday night and we just wanted to make sure that he had his job back to work Tuesday night. And we just wanted to make sure that he had his job. That was so important for me and him and for our son to keep that job. And when the prosecutor found out that he was released on a personal recognizant bond, she went back to the court and basically made him wear a tether then and pay for the tether. Right, and that was my first experience of the collateral damages that come to the family, because the tether itself was $175 a week.
Jason:Stop $175 every single week. One hundred seventy five dollars every single week, and was.
Amber:It was an ankle monitor, to wear an ankle monitor, restricting movement, correct. And so, for those who have never had an experience like this, can you describe like so this is an electronic device and it attaches to someone's body and it is incumbent upon the person to make sure that it's charged, and if it goes dead then it's just. It's not. Oh, the thing just went dead. It's like well, you're trying to abscond. Can you talk a little bit about how that affected your son and your family?
Shawn:Well, so I guess what my first thought with that was okay, if you feel that he needs this, even though the judge felt that he didn't, and obviously you're a prosecutor so you must know more than what the judge does. But I said, okay, we're not going to again. I was thinking, this is another challenge, this is another obstacle, let's just get through it. But it was definitely in the back of my head all the time, asking him are you charged up? Do we need to go in and pay for this? Just constantly making sure that everything was kosher, because I just did not want anything to bring attention to him anymore. I mean, we already had. This was in our community. Everyone knows things happen in the newspapers. There was already that sand drawn in the line within the community, so it was just like I was trying to keep things as normal as possible, which and you're carrying the emotion.
Jason:You put pressure on yourself to carry that emotional load. So, even though he is responsible 24 year old that's on his way to was, on his way to med school you're still saying I got to make sure that this thing doesn't go any further south than it's already gone. Right, right, yeah.
Shawn:So we ended up having to tether and it was definitely another monkey on his back, so to speak. We dealt with it and the tuxedos covered everything during the wedding, so even the pictures. You couldn't tell, or anything like that. And then I was worried too, because with this tether, I mean they said that he couldn't leave the state of Michigan Not that we were leaving our state of Michigan, we were traveling downstate for the wedding. So I remember asking our attorney I said is this going to be a problem? And he says no. He says your son can enjoy his brother's wedding. And I'm like, okay, there's going to be alcohol, there's going to be children. That was one thing with the. This is how naive I was at the time. There was one thing with the tether. I was thinking are you going to get in trouble if, like, we're in church and a youngster sits next to us? I mean, all these thoughts were going through my head, you know, because I didn't know and I was just thinking the worst possible case scenarios.
Amber:I just, I just didn't want them to come and arrest him right, and that's definitely like a trauma response, because once something like that happens to you, you're you're like trying to hold on, Right, You're trying to hold on and you're so hyper vigilant that something phone rings and you're like you know it could be your girlfriend calling you to be like, hey, let's get together for coffee. But you heard the phone ring and you're like is that a lawyer? Is that the police? So how did the wedding go? Let's start with that.
Shawn:It went really well. We had a really nice time and it was a weekend that we could kind of forget.
Jason:Other than the tether but it was.
Shawn:It was a weekend that we could forget. We all had a nice time, it was beautiful. But that following week was looming because there were hearings and things that were coming up. And my husband he travels quite a bit for work and he had some out of state things that he had to do and he was feeling very apprehensive about leaving because we had these and I forget exactly what they were. I don't know if they were settlement conferences or what was going on at that time, but he was feeling very apprehensive about leaving and I kept saying no, you need to go, I can handle this. It definitely had us both thinking that, okay, it can't get any worse than what it is, and he was thinking this is really bad.
Jason:Going back a second, what you said was you had a good time at the wedding and it was almost like it seemed weird, like it was almost like a break in the stress, and I think what's interesting is that when people hear about other families like their life is over, you put that in. I'll put that in quotes right, their life is over and it's really. Your life isn't over and there are still moments of joy, even when you have this tremendous stress and things going on. So the fact that you were able to appreciate it, I'm happy for you and your family. As we go forward in the story a little bit, though, I'm curious how long was there between now this arrest and the bonds and all the stuff you're talking about, and then when you get to actual conviction?
Shawn:like. What's the elapsed time? He was arrested August 31st 2017. The wedding was October 14th 2017. He was charged December 2017. He was and we had some proceedings that we tried we tried to because there was some bias that was going on. We tried to get the judge removed to have a different judge. That didn't go very well and in December they put him back and the judge that we tried to get removed raised his bond.
Amber:He seemed to be a little upset about wanting to be removed.
Shawn:Yes, and so he raised his bond and they put him back in jail.
Amber:That was in.
Shawn:December 2017. We tried to do an emergency appeal on that to prove that the bias that the judge had. We lost the appeal. We ended up bailing him out of jail in January 2018.
Jason:Okay, so hang on. So it's December Now. Each of these times that there's an event going in front of this judge, I'm just curious were you there standing with him, or were you advised not to go? What was?
Shawn:that like we were there. Okay, I was there.
Jason:So every time the judge looked out, there's family.
Shawn:Yeah, and even extended family too. On my side the family was there and we even had his counselor there in other proceedings as well. We had an outpouring of support for him. We had many letters, character reference letters, and it was to me that's what kept me going. But we also had the other side, too, where we lost immediate family members that we still don't have contact with because of this. But we've gained so much more I'm sure you've heard that many times with this journey. People gain so much more with people.
Jason:So just to expand on that so what you're saying is that, as you're going through this, as soon as people find out, they just cut you off, they want nothing to do with this, whereas there are other people that are just saying you know what, we know you, sean, we know your son, we love you, we're here for you, you'll get through this and we'll stand by you by you and I think, yes, exactly, Jason.
Shawn:There were the ones that just cut it off and you could tell the ones that you would come up to in the grocery store and they'd see you and they'd turn around and walk the other way for the other ones that come up and they talk to you.
Jason:Hold on, hold on hold on Amber. You know something about that.
Amber:Yeah, no, that has definitely happened on many occasions. I had also like people that you know, those people in your life that you know in the community, but you're just sort of acquaintances, but then all of a sudden, because they want info, they're really friendly and then all of a sudden they're not. You know what I mean. You have, you had all kinds, you had all kinds.
Jason:Let me, let me tell you this quick way kinds you had all kinds. Let me tell you this quick Wade I had saved the guy's life with the Heimlich maneuver. Within six months prior to my involvement with the criminal system, ran into his wife in a store and did exactly what you're talking about Turned around and walked to the other direction. Maybe she wasn't glad that I saved her husband's life.
Amber:I mean, they do say you find out very quickly who your friends are. In a situation like this, you do you do?
Shawn:Yes. So it was in January that we found out that not only was he going to have state charges, they were getting the federal jurisdiction involved. So now we are looking at state charges and federal charges and again not really being too in tune to the criminal legal system, my thought and my husband's thought was could we just get everything over to the feds, because they're probably a lot more logical than what the small community is treating us Because of my son's education? The prosecutor was basically laying him out that he had planned all this throughout the years and that he had this all methodically planned out. It was premeditated and all these things, and so I'm thinking this is so ridiculous.
Jason:So I'm yeah, I'm not educated on this aspect of getting this the federal involved on a state crime. So if something happens within the state, did he cross state lines Is that? Why would the federal government be involved?
Shawn:state lines is that? Why would the federal government be involved? Well, there is a commerce ruling that federal jurisdiction will use. And because my son took eight pictures of a minor, his phone was made outside of the United States outside of the United States.
Amber:It's usually like a threat, like you'll have an aggressive prosecutor, and so this was a situation, like if you used any sort of electronic devices, because, for instance, federal law says that a minor is 18 and under. Local law may say a minor is 16 and under, and so there's a lot of trying to find a federal charge to attach as a mechanism to threaten.
Jason:Taking something that's.
Amber:The same thing and making it something different.
Jason:And making it. You know there's harm caused clearly.
Amber:A hundred percent. Yeah, that was harm.
Jason:I want to acknowledge that right.
Shawn:Definitely.
Jason:But how do we, instead of figuring out how to stop the harm and solve going forward, how do we take this one issue and make it a federal offense? Correct, okay, correct, all right. Thank you, I didn't know that.
Shawn:That's very helpful for me, but we really thought that once it got into the federal jurisdiction number one, the FBI didn't even take it. There was eight pictures. My son did not sell them, they were on his phone and the Homeland Security is the one that indicted him. So then that happened. We went through the state charges. The charge actually that local state prosecutor dropped was the charge that was sent over to the federal jurisdiction. So really she did drop it.
Amber:She dropped it, but she was like hey, my friends over there they're going to pick it up.
Shawn:They're going to pick it up, and that's exactly what they did, and so we ended up taking a plea at the state level. His sentence and we have truth in sentencing here in Michigan so his sentence had a range from four to 15 years, minimum of four, maximum of 15. And then he was sentenced in April of 2018. And at the end of April he got transferred to the Michigan Department of Corrections and I remember all this time that my son was in county jail. I have to admit, originally, when we would go visit him, it was trauma.
Shawn:It was being treated very poorly as a family and I remember thinking why are we being treated like this Number one? I got an attitude. It was just like listen, here, I'm paying your wages through my taxes and I don't deserve this treatment, and I would say that to them and they would just ignore you. But then the more we started going and families are crowded in these visiting rooms at the county jail it's awful and they're just waiting just to make sure. Look into their loved one's eyes to make sure everything's okay. That's all they want. They just want reassurance.
Jason:And everybody's in this tight space and you're treated as if you have failed as a human being for raising this monster. Right, exactly.
Shawn:Yeah Okay for raising this monster right. Exactly yeah, Okay. And I remember thinking at that time I was looking around and I would see small children, I would see elderly people, just all walks of life, and I'm thinking this is a totally different dimension of the world that we know.
Jason:So you had never seen this before. You have no familiarity with being inside of a jail or seeing what happens and how they treat families, and you're being exposed to this for the first time.
Shawn:It was mind-blowing and it was very sad.
Jason:If you could go back to yourself from 2016,. What would you say?
Shawn:Hang on what would you say, hang? On you got a big ride that's coming out of your girlfriend. You better hang on, no. And I would just say keep your faith Because, like I said, our seven-year anniversary is coming up next Saturday and, knowing what I know now, I would have never thought seven years ago we would be talking on this podcast right now, right?
Jason:No, we've got some good stuff coming up towards the end, but we talk about all the good things you're doing.
Amber:So he gets transferred to so he gets transferred and I got a call from the county jail.
Shawn:It wasn't maybe I don't know what they do when people get transferred out, how long they need to contact families to come pick up their property, but I was at work and at this time I just worked a couple of blocks from where the county jail was at. And I got this phone call and I answered it and the I don't know jail administrator she was matter of fact and her exact words to me were Mr, my son's name was Leaf, was not, is no longer here, and if you don't come pick up his personal belongings and within 24 hours his personal belongings will be destroyed.
Amber:Just you're like oh thanks, Thanks for the phone call, yeah, Thanks. I think this is really an illustration of how folks that are working within the system this is a Tuesday for them, right? This is just a day of the week. They're like very matter of fact, your life is crumbling and they're just like here's this thing and we're going to destroy something, hurt something, harm something, and this is just like what the system is.
Shawn:And I remember saying to her Wow. I said do you say this to everybody? I said you do know that it's a loved one of somebody's and I said and their personal belongings might mean a lot to them and maybe people might not be able to get there within 24 hours. And she was just as long as you're here within 24 hours.
Jason:I'll be there today, thank you, yeah, have a nice day.
Shawn:Yeah, can we help you with anything else?
Jason:Yeah, I love that you speak your mind. That's amazing.
Shawn:Well, it took me a long time to get to that point because I was so afraid that if I did speak my mind, that there would be you touched on it right there.
Jason:It's fear and once you're in this system, like how, if I do anything, it might make the situation worse, and that fear is a very strong thing for everybody, and getting up and speaking it takes a lot of courage, but it also comes with risk, because the fear is real.
Shawn:So he got to the Michigan Department of Corrections.
Shawn:He was there for five days and he got indicted.
Shawn:So we were down into the federal court in the Eastern District in the state of Michigan and at that time he got indicted and the magistrate asked him if he and our attorneys advised him not to go back to the MDLC so don't let them rent you out.
Shawn:You want to stay within the federal jurisdiction so that you're not being transferred back and forth for all the proceedings and everything. And we did this so that because the state prosecuting attorney was telling us also that she had other charges against him for lying to a police officer that she was going to charge him with. So that whole thing once they charge you, they have 180 days to get everything going before it can get dropped. So our attorney said let's just keep them here, let them stay here. So we did that and from May of 2018 until October of 2019, he was transported across the state of Michigan to all different county jails, and so it was definitely experiencing a lot of expense, a lot of worry, but we also were just getting to the point where it was just like we just need to get on. We need to get out of their lives now.
Jason:Were you learning where he was in real time or were you finding out after he was moved?
Shawn:Well, and I know in other states they had this too. But we signed up to Vine V-I-N-E so every time he left a facility we were text, so we got notified that way. But it was interesting to see the differences in all the county jails as far as how much they charge for phone calls and commissary items and visitation. I think the most expensive phone call we had was $20 for 10 minutes. Okay, and so a lot of money. We were bleeding financially, yeah, and, but we luckily had help from other people. But we just made this pact that he needs us. He needs to hear our voices.
Jason:So you had some resources and then you had help from others. But every time you turn around, you're throwing money at the phone calls to stay in touch. You're throwing money at the commissary so that he's able to eat and have some basic needs met. You're throwing money at your own travel expense to get there. So it's as you said it's starting to add up, and I'm assuming that you and your husband are still working, yes, and so you have a job that you're trying to balance on top of all this in order to help fund some of that. So it's got to take a toll.
Shawn:It was definitely taking a toll and we used outside resources. As far as for mental health, Both my husband and I kept on seeing the counselor that had gave us hope with our son. If it wasn't for her, I know he probably wouldn't be here right now, and she was amazing. And she was amazing. She was an expert and before my son was transferred and indicted and everything, and before he was put in county jail in December of 2017, she was seeing him twice a week and she would assure me. She said Sean, your son is not a monster. And she also explained there were prior traumas that happened in his life and so we were all just trying to understand the situation.
Jason:Oh, so I just want to highlight a couple of things. So if she's saying to you your son is not a monster, it sounds like you may have been thinking that your son is like how do I reconcile this son, who I raised and love, with this action and this act which makes him a monster? Because if he committed the act then he has to be a monster. But you're saying you were reassured your son is still your son. He's still the human being that you love.
Amber:I think it's really important that you highlighted the little bits of light along the way in terms of there's a lot of perception that you either are good or bad. You are um a system actor who is bad if you're talking to people who are impacted, or if you're a person who's impacted. You're bad if you're talking to a correction officer or a therapist or whatever, and it's important to know that there's humanity in all of us and there are ways that even system actors um find to bring some light to the situation yeah, and the other thing that sean touched on is the fact that her son had previous trauma.
Jason:As we have talked with many people and we have learned over the years and experienced ourselves that before people harm, they've often been harmed themselves. And when you look, there are a lot of hurting people in the world and everybody reacts differently. Sometimes things get suppressed and then come out in unhealthy ways. So helping people heal is very important. So it sounds like your son's on that journey, but let's go back. Let's go back to so now he's incarcerated and moving all over the place.
Shawn:Moving all over the place and I just want to touch base with this one counselor, because what we did to help my son was we would make appointments with her and schedule phone calls. He would schedule a phone call and we would make an appointment with her so that she could continue to have communication with him.
Amber:Oh, that's a really good idea.
Shawn:And even though they were recorded phone calls, they didn't talk about anything. She just knew she goes I can tell from the sound of his voice where he's at and she wanted to keep a pulse on that because we knew we were going to use her and we didn't want this void of time that she didn't have any contact with him, and so it was just such a for both of them. It helped our son tremendously and it helped me, knowing that she had a pulse on this and she was just such a caring person to do that. So I really wanted to emphasize that we really need to find ways to help. Sometimes, like you said, everything our control is zero.
Jason:Do you want to say her name, or is that?
Shawn:Oh, she's retired now, but it's Barbara Cross.
Jason:Okay, and we love you, barbara Cross.
Shawn:Yeah, we love you, barbara, and she's fine foot tall. She's just a bulldog, she does. She was just amazing and she did. She helped us so much and I think it's really important that people do reach out for that type of Some people. There's a stigmatism with that sometimes, but you got to find someone who you're comfortable with. But I truly believe from the bottom of my heart that if she was not involved, that we would have different circumstances right now.
Shawn:All right, that's awesome so anyways getting to where we are now. We went through our. He got indicted. He's all over the state of Michigan. He got indicted, he was all over the state of Michigan, but during this time he was in this one county where he came across a friend that we would call a friend now, talking about people that are blessed. And they hit it off, he and this guy, and they became very good friends.
Shawn:And this particular gentleman wrote me a letter about my son and he just praised him. He said your son has helped me. He says God put him in our path to be friends and to this day we are still friends with this person. We've adopted him and he and my son call each other brothers and they ended up at the same facility and state. But it's just people like this that recognize things. And he basically said your son's not a criminal. He says I believe me. I've been through all this before and I don't want to label anybody, but he says he just doesn't fit the bill. But he listened to me, he helped me, he says, and that meant a lot to him.
Shawn:So there were some really, like you said, bright spots along the way that I would get this postcard out of the blue and I'd read it and of course your heart drops because it's coming from a facility and you're just like, oh boy, what's going on?
Shawn:And you read it and I would cry because I'm like, okay, there's a reason for all this and it's finally coming to my vision that things happen for a reason. I don't like to use that cliche because it sounds like it doesn't have a lot of meaning to it, but in our life right now there's reasons for all this, but anyway. So he gets on to federal jurisdiction. We're faced with a mandatory minimum of 15 years because he had a prior conviction, even though it was with the same instance. The AUSA was trying to go for 30 to 40 years and our attorney was able to fight that and luckily had a relationship with the federal judge. And even the judge said that the mandatory minimum has his hands tied and he probably wouldn't have gone, that he would have had a departure down. But because of that he did give our son a concurrent sentence go back.
Jason:So you're saying so somebody can commit an offense and the state can say we're going to give you a sentence, and then you go to the federal system and it's the exact same offense.
Amber:And they say you have a prior conviction, Therefore you are subject to a mandatory minimum. So I think there's two things that I just want to pause really quickly and highlight here, two things that I just want to pause really quickly and highlight here, because this are things that people who have never encountered this don't understand, and even people who are situated differently and have been impacted by the legal system. The idea that the same act you know, we think our perception, if we've never contacted the system, is things are fair and that double jeopardy is prohibited by the constitution and all of these things. So the idea that somebody could commit the same act and not only have the state try it, then the federal government, but apply a mandatory minimum and for those who are not familiar, that's exactly what Sean described A judge could say I want to give this person probation, I want to give this person five years, but by law, the judge is obligated to stick with the mandatory time that they can give, and in this case it was 15 years.
Amber:And let's think about what 15 years is. I have an 11-year-old son. He hasn't even been alive for 15 years. I'm not the same person I was 15 years ago.
Jason:People get married, there are children born All of these things can happen in 15 years, and we just hand it out Mandatorily like it's nothing. So, in order to make things right with the world, what we have to do is take 15 years away from his life, his family's life, and those are critical 15 years where you can go and have a career and a family and do all sorts of stuff. He's a young man that barely started his adult life and now he's facing these 15 years.
Amber:Right, and so you also mentioned concurrent. Can you please just describe?
Shawn:what that means for people who may not be familiar. Absolutely, the judge has the ability to have sentences consecutive, which would mean that they would start one sentence and they would end that sentence and then they would start the second sentence. Concurrent means that both sentences are pretty much run together, so his state sentence of four to 15 years and his mandatory minimum sentence of 15 years are all the same. So that was a benefit that we had. Even at the time I'm thinking, oh thanks, but no, it is, it really is.
Amber:And you mentioned before also truth in sentencing. Can you describe for people who don't know what truth in sentencing means?
Shawn:I believe I don't quote me on the dates, but I believe it was either the early 80s or late 90s the state of Michigan used to have good time but decided that wasn't helping, or when, maybe, I don't know what happened. I don't know who the governor was at that time, but they decided to go to this truth in sentencing, which means that you are given a minimum sentence and a maximum sentence and depending on how your behavior is on the inside will determine if you are eligible to have the minimum sentence or are you going to have some. If it's like with my son's situation, it was four to 15, he could have easily he had to do at least four and then. But if he had any bad behavior or any tickets or another charge or anything like that, then it could potentially go to 15 years or another charge or anything like that, then it could potentially go to 15 years. So when you're processed in the Michigan Department of Corrections, you get what's called an early release date, an ERD, and so your early release date reflects the earliest minimum and then, as long as you don't have any tickets and you follow what you need to follow, then you'll go up to the parole board and see if they'll release you on the earliest release date.
Shawn:And that's exactly what happened with my son because he did the four years. He did sit in COVID for quite some time in county jails because he was in the federal jurisdiction when all that happened. And then when he was sent back to the MDOC, he was really only at Michigan Department of Corrections for two years physically in the system. He was released on probation. He was released last July 2023. And then the marshals came and picked him up.
Jason:I'm just trying to piece it together. So he's released, he's done with the incarcerated part of Michigan, put on probation, but now he's got to go into the federal incarceration system and he's on probation in Michigan. So I'm not familiar with how that works if you're in prison and you're on probation. He's answering to two different systems still, or how does that work?
Shawn:When we went to the parole board meeting and at that time their system is three panelists have to agree to grant parole, but you're only interviewed by one. So going through his records and everything he did, and the parole board panelists asked questions. Exactly what you're saying, jason. And at that time is when they look at the whole file and he says, oh, I see you have a detainer, a federal detainer. And then he asked my son what that was all about and he even said this is silly. He says I can't believe that they've charged you federally for this. But okay, so because there's a detainer, then the requirements of parole are basically null because you're being transferred from one custody to another. But one good thing because of his charges in the state of Michigan in Sora, he was placed on tier two, so he's at 25 years with the registry and because the state of Michigan released him, his time on the registry has started already.
Jason:Oh. So if he was still in the Michigan system it wouldn't start until he was released. But because he's now out of that system, he gets credit towards the registration requirements.
Shawn:It's saying right now he's not compliant because he is incarcerated, but it is going, the clock's already ticking.
Amber:So I do have to say this is complicated, right, like how does one? It just seems like a lot of up and down and I can only imagine that trying to navigate all of this as a family and him as the person who's subject to it. There is just so much to unpack and go through and deal with. And then the other thing I want to mention, just going back to something that you said before this idea of the truth in sentencing and you can go in front of the board. You're completely at the mercy of that board, and who is making the decision that day, how you are able to present all of those things. And not to mention the idea of if you have no tickets, right, I just want to talk about what actually can happen to people as a, for instance, if you are incarcerated and someone attacks you. You have now been in a fight which can set you back for these reasons, by no fault of your own.
Shawn:So I just want to put that in context for people who may not know about some of these things. So thank you for sharing that think COVID was a really good thing. But a lot of good happened within COVID for our family anyways whereas Gabe was stuck pretty much stuck in this little jail over on the thumb of Michigan in this little small community the entire time for COVID. So all that time was being ticked away for both sentences, but he only, like I said, he was only at Michigan Department of Corrections for two years. So he so for some of these people who are facing very long sentences, I mean, things like you just explained, amber, can happen within a drop of a dime. So he had a very short time period where he stayed very well behaved and I don't expect that something would happen.
Shawn:But ironically, after his parole board meeting, after he was granted parole, he did get into a fight and he did exactly what you said. He was attacked and I'm like, oh no. So when that happened I was like are they going to pull his release? And then I even thought is this going to affect his good time? So I'm thinking, because federal has good time. So I'm thinking I'm just like, oh my goodness. But luckily when he went to his hearing they saw the video that happened and he was able to defend that I didn't do anything.
Jason:If you're a thinking person and you have a little bit of anxiety already about anything. Anytime stuff happens, you're always thinking about the worst things that can happen, and I think part of the collateral consequences and punishment for the extended family is always worrying about when the next shoe is going to drop, when that next bomb is going to go off, because it's just there all the time. If this happens, that's going to happen. If this, how does that affect this? How does that affect? So? You hit on it, I think really nicely. So we're now in the federal system. It's 2024.
Shawn:The looming federal system.
Jason:Where is he right now?
Shawn:Right now he's in Milan, Michigan.
Jason:So he's in Michigan. Where's Michigan when you look at the mitten right? Where in the-.
Shawn:He's down by Ann Arbor. So, Southeast Michigan Monroe. I'm not too far from the Illinois Ohio border.
Jason:Now, is he the one that went to the University of Michigan?
Shawn:Yeah, he is.
Jason:So he's not too far. It's kind of ironic, right, he's serving time, it is he's not too far from where he went to school.
Shawn:He is true blue all the way through. He is true blue all the way through. He even has the big black M tattooed and it's just off to the side. So, yeah, he is definitely a Wolverine. So, yeah, this is bittersweet for him, but I think some of that pride and that feeling of where he went to school has helped him through some of this. So that's been a blessing. And also, both boys, carl, they talk and even like when it's football season, they're still writing each other about.
Jason:So sometime in like 2020 and maybe before you decided I am going to take charge, I'm going to get involved in a much bigger way. I see the shirt you're wearing We'll talk about that a little later, but like so, what's that transformation? How did that come about?
Shawn:So when this all came about, with impacting our family, and we got through the wedding and we're into 2018, and all this time I'm thinking where is the support for these families that I would see in these jails? And you just see the look of forlorn on their faces and desperation and I'm thinking and how we were treated even in court, I was just like I didn't do anything. I'm here to support my family. Why am I being treated like this?
Shawn:And even for the prosecutor, it was just like this polarizing line has been drawn you against me and I just found that just so depressing and I'm thinking we're all in the same community here. We all want the same thing. We want safety, we want less harm, we want our communities to be flourishing. Why are we being treated like this? And that was my first thing. And so I started looking around for support groups and there wasn't any for this end of harm. And I started going through the internet and I came across Dr Ackerman's TED Talk and that changed me. I was emotionally impacted with that. I had tears in my eyes and I think the reason why is because I felt hope.
Jason:So shout out to Alyssa.
Shawn:Ackerman.
Amber:She's my she hero, for sure, I'm not crying. I'm not crying. You can't see this, but here it is.
Jason:So the three of us are all huge fans of Alyssa and I'm sure not everybody listening knows.
Shawn:Alyssa's work.
Jason:If you don't know, you go look for the TED Talk. Alyssa's an amazing human being who's a friend, who has survived trauma in her own life, you know, through a sexual assault. She's very public about that and she went into the whole field of trying to understand and make things better and do restorative justice type work, and so thank you for mentioning that's what brought you into the work. So that's amazing, yeah.
Amber:And I just have to say the reason that that like struck such a chord for me is I remember doing the same thing and just being like Internet help me. Like is there anybody here that like am I screaming into the void? And then just coming across Emily Horowitz debate and being like, oh my God.
Shawn:Yeah, there's somebody who cares about this debate and being like, oh my God, there's somebody who cares about this, and so I was just so struck when you said that, because I feel like that is an experience that many people have had who have been through this and just the thought of the restorative justice part of it that hit me hard, because we obviously we were very big in faith in our lives and I was talking to our priest and coincidentally he was another pivotal person in my son's life and he actually visited him and throughout writes him, and so I look at that community too, where you go within your community for healing, and this wasn't happening. So when I saw Alyssa's TED Talk, I was just like, oh, this is good, this is really good. This is what I've been feeling, this is acknowledging everything, and it was just like such a validation in that, okay, we can do this, there's something out there, there's hope, at least there's hope. Then I started doing more on the restorative justice, like trying just to figure out a little bit more, and then I found in Ann Arbor a support group called Michigan Citizens for Justice and the founder of that is named Kathy Corlay, her and her husband, and I called her up and I said this is the situation. And I remember speaking to her.
Shawn:We talked for a long time and one thing that she said to me that was like why are you asking me this? She said have you told anybody? And I said no. She said why? And I said why would I? She goes because, sean, so many people are impacted that you would be surprised how many family members are out there that are going through what you're going through.
Shawn:And it didn't even hit me like that. I thought we were an island. I thought this is such an isolation that who would want to talk about this? And when she said that, I felt, sean, that was stupid. There's probably a lot of people that are in this type of situation, and so that was the first thing. It was like, okay, all right, there's more to this, a lot more to this than what we're seeing. We ended up taking the trip once a month. They have a support group on Saturday afternoons in Ann Arbor. My sister lives close by, so we would go there and stay the night. We met with John and Kathy for coffee at this little coffee house before our first meeting and two hours later many tears we went to our first support group meeting and it was probably the only time that since that started, that we could be ourselves, that we could be ourselves, and it was so cleansing and at that time I knew I wanted to help people.
Jason:Was there hugging?
Shawn:Hugging. Oh yeah, and it was so nice, because that's where I met Josh Ho.
Jason:Yeah, Joshua Ho. Yeah, I was going to say it was his birthday the last week before we're recording this and he's amazing, so you actually met him in person early on in your journey. That's great.
Shawn:Yep 2018, 19.
Jason:Fabulous.
Shawn:And it was so nice because they reorganized the meeting so that and there was probably I can't talk a lot about it because it's very safe information but the whole thing was they rearranged it so that everybody could give us a tidbit of advice.
Jason:So, while we're doing all these shout outs for people, though, before you go on. So Joshua Hull is the podcast that he had Decarceration Nation. That was his podcast. He's a policy organizer now with Dreamorg. He says amazing things, he's on Twitter, he's on a couple of other social media platforms and he's been an inspiration to me. I know Amber. Just want to just highlight that we're bringing up all the greats We've got. Alyssa. Emily and. Joshua all in the same conversation. Emily Kathy Joshua.
Shawn:So that started our dipping my toes into advocacy, because at that time we still had the Dovey Snyder case with the ACLU involved and this group was branching out for helping the ACLU with this litigation and so we were having trainings from the ACLU on how to talk to your legislative leaders.
Shawn:We were getting involved as what the replications are with this case, and I remember thinking the registry was just like this is just another absurd part of this whole journey, and at first I was like I'm not sure if we're ready to do this, but then I thought our son's going to be there eventually, so we might as well get to be as much involved as we can. So when he does get out, hopefully it'll be changed, but if not, then we have more information on how we can handle this. So that's where the advocacy came in. We started going to our leaders and advocating, following the litigation pretty closely and just knowing at that point that nothing's going to change unless we get involved. And so we had really good teachers, we had people who held our hands, and then we branched out on our own and we actually got a chapter of the ACLU up here where I live, which was a very conservative community. But for the first meeting that they held we had probably over a hundred people there. So that proved too that we need this.
Shawn:We need this, right Right.
Jason:So what comes first? I know we saw you on one of our meetings early on with Restorative Action Alliance and you have a website. You have a Facebook group. You have regular Zoom meetings with United Voices for Sex. Offense Reform is the name of the organization. What's that all about?
Shawn:So we ended up going through all these things at the ACLU and I was again working on just trying to find like-minded people.
Shawn:then COVID hit and everyone, everything stops and all we have is Zoom and the internet and during this time period I'm finding, wow, there's a lot of angst, there's a lot of people who are angry but they don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. And so one of our meetings, a lot of complaining but nothing being done. And at this point I was just like we need to do something and we need to quit being afraid. And if this is what we want to do, then let's organize this.
Shawn:And I wasn't expecting it to take off the way it did, because, in my experience with all this, people are at different stages of this, and some are at the pretrial, some are incarcerated, some are at the registry, and it's such a hard thing to share Because I think we all have these boundaries that we put up, that we're going to get judged. Or maybe some people think this thing that my loved one did isn't really quite as serious as what your loved one did, so maybe we shouldn't be talking type of thing, and I really wanted to dissolve that because it doesn't matter, we're all in the same boat. The schematics may be different, but we're all in the same boat. The foundation is the same thing. So let's just get past that and work on what needs to get done. So we decided that we would do this little trial meeting if you're interested in advocacy because there was a ton of support resources out there and this is different. Advocacy can be a support, but it's different and so I really wanted to get some groundwork, grassroots, building on just advocacy, and I realized this was going to be a really tall challenge because we're all at different stages.
Shawn:But I was going back to where I was when we started lobbying and looking at things and just how much information is golden and education is golden. So if you can be confident in how you speak, then it doesn't matter who you're speaking to, that's advocacy If you're talking to your neighbor or I had a situation where I used to teach fitness classes. I ran into a person that came to my classes about four months ago and we were talking and she said I haven't seen you in so long. She goes. I really miss our classes and she goes. Why did you stop doing classes? And that was when we were impacted and I looked at her and I said you don't know and she goes. No, so here I portrayed that people all knew what was going on in our lives.
Jason:Right.
Shawn:And a lot allowed people different. So that opportunity was to share a little bit of what happened, but also to get that advocacy out there, and she was so receptive. So we bring our own barriers and if we're not confident in how we can send our message, then that barrier gets bigger. So that was the whole premise of all this we just need to come together, we need to be confident in what we're doing and that first meeting it was like, oh my goodness, there is a ton of people here.
Amber:That's amazing.
Jason:It was like what did I get myself?
Shawn:but the passion and the interest and just I hate to use the square, but the desperation yeah is there no, that's a good word for it.
Jason:I mean, it's absolutely there. So so you have an organization and it's been doing things like reviewing what's in the sentencing commission reports and getting people to write letters. You saw what was happening with the castration laws in Louisiana and got people to act quickly, so you created a network of people to do letter writing campaigns for different people of different states to come together, whether it affects locally or federally. What's going on? You've got all sorts of things that are happening with your organization right. What are the plans going forward? How's this expanding? How can people get involved?
Shawn:We do have a website and it's uv4sororg. There is a contact us on that if anybody's interested. We are on social media just on Facebook, but we also identify that many of our members are not able to be on social media, so we really tried to push them towards the website, which is our main contact. But the situation that we're in this organization we've really got ebbs and flows with everything. We're really trying to make our statement out there, but I think the most important thing is that we identify with every part of this journey. So when someone says what is your focus, it's really hard to identify that only because we try to help the needs of where the person is.
Shawn:At this time, most of our members are impacted with the federal jurisdiction, but that doesn't limit us for people who are in state. We want to expand so that we can accommodate that. We are in the process of trying to have grassroots in every state. Our membership grew hugely. We are I think we're represented in every state except six last time I counted. But we are growing. We do have growing pains and we're really trying to listen to what people want, but I think the most important thing is that we are trying to get people to understand that it starts with you. And how we're going to start with you is we're going to give the resources so that you feel comfortable in your advocacy. So, whether that's like I said earlier, whether that's just talking to your neighbor, going to community outreach situations, talking to your leaders, we all have to have the same message there and we all need to be consistent in our message, and politics don't play any game here.
Jason:And because there's always that when we talked about, like registry reform, it's. We only think that this is how far we're going to get, so we're going to advocate for a little change in the requirements. No abolition, it's. We only think that this is how far we're going to get, so we're going to advocate for a little change in the requirements. No abolition, it's wrong, get rid of it. Those are the types of messaging things I think you're alluding to. One thing I want to ask you is, as we're talking about your organization, we mentioned three superstars earlier Are there people that would want their name to be mentioned and acknowledged? I know there's people doing the work that just want to stay under the radar a little bit, but if there's anybody in your organization or people that you've come across that you want to highlight, now's an opportunity to do that.
Shawn:We really have some really good members and I think what's really looking at the whole picture, what's really satisfying to me is to see them when they started and then to see them flourish with their confidence. So of course, I have a wonderful board. We've all been together since this started and they have been wonderful people to lean into, especially with some of the situations that come across our platform, and we really have some like. My sister has stepped up to the plate, has really used her experience in the corporate world to help with behind the scenes things, and we really want to make sure that people that are on this platform that we offer a safe space. This is where we're going to grow and learn and we don't want you to be worried that things are going to get out, and this is where we as a group come together collectively to make sure that we're all on the same page so that we can learn and grow together.
Shawn:We have a couple of people from North Carolina. They again their families impacted through the state of North Carolina, but they have been tremendous, just thinking outside the box, thinking of ways that they could help. How can we get this word out? There's another person. Her name is Kendra Phillips. She is a professional colleague I look at both of you as professional colleagues, with their membership as well. She is a playwright and she is writing a play about this community, so I want to give a shout out to her because, again, that's something that takes a lot of courage to do and hopefully, when she gets done, we'll be able to get this message on that platform as well.
Jason:No pressure, hurry up and finish the play. And Sean, you're talking about all these colleagues with such pride, and I'm sure that they're very proud of you.
Amber:And when they listen to this, they the messaging and the leadership of United Voices is the clear intention to making sure that people, as you said through your own journey, making sure that people understand that they belong Right, right, and not calling people out when they're in a place of trauma and they might be saying something that is full of anger, but calling them in and saying this is I appreciate what you're feeling. Have you considered that another person who has a slightly different situation may find some of these words harmful? Right, and so I think the clear intention to that is something that's really special and is a model to other people who are engaging in advocacy and, as Jason said, the joy with which you are speaking about your colleagues is on your face. People can't see it because this is a podcast, is really contagious, if you will, and it speaks to her character.
Amber:Yeah, it definitely speaks to, Sean, and the ray of light that you are, the thread throughout even a lot of the things that you were describing that are complicated and full of trauma, was I was really thankful for this thing and then I was thankful for this thing. I appreciate that hopefulness that you bring to this movement and I just wanted to say that out loud.
Shawn:Well, thank you very much and know that I look up to both of you, but I also look to you as friendship. I've come across so many people in this journey and I'm just flabbergasted at, sometimes, just the people that cross our paths and how this journey brings us all together, and I'm very thankful for that, because I know both of you have done so much within this foundation and it's just amazing that we were together and collaborating together. I'm so blessed for that.
Jason:Amber's usually the one that cries, but I'm getting all misty here, so listen, this has been great. I want to know how's your son doing right now.
Shawn:He's doing really well. He's very resilient, he's very smart, he has a good group of people. And one thing I want to say with pride with our organization, that once he got into the federal jurisdiction, if it wasn't for this network of putting out there where he's going and people coming together and saying, okay, I know this person, I know this person, I know the person Amazing, it was amazing. It was amazing and I think the little bit of what we could do for our members is to provide that comfort that goes over and above everything. But he's doing very well. Thank you for asking. He is my hero. I tell him that every day he gets up, he goes through this, he's taking accountability and when he gets out, he's going to be part of this organization and he's going to make it go.
Jason:Yeah, wait to be working side by side with him 100%.
Amber:I think it might be time for the final question.
Jason:Go for it.
Amber:I always like to ask people if you could give one piece of advice to someone who is at the beginning of a journey similar to yours. What would that be?
Shawn:Trust your instincts. I say that because I knew something was worse than what we were being told and I knew that we needed an advocate in our corner. So if you feel that something's not right, it's not right, so really trust your instincts and to have faith, because and whatever that faith is in your life to have that, like I said, looking back, there were times I would come home and I would expect not to see my son alive and I hope that doesn't trigger too many people with this. But knowing what I know now resilience and faith, and just trusting your instincts, it will get you through and it does get easier. And just know that people are out here to support you.
Amber:I love that so much. I feel like that is such a wonderful closing to an extremely wonderful podcast, and we want to thank you so much for being with us today and sharing your light and the light of those who are working alongside you. Thank you both.
Shawn:I really appreciate it. It was very nice getting up and having coffee with both of you on Saturday morning.
Jason:Sean, I liked you before. I like you more now. This was a great conversation.
Jason:Loved getting to know you a little bit better, and I think it's going to be so beneficial for so many people to listen to and, as you've talked about, no matter where they are on the journey if they're just starting, they might get some hope. If they're in the middle, it might give them some inspiration. If they're towards the end, they might want to join us, whatever. So I think it was a. It was wonderful to talk with you, and until next time, amber.
Outro:We'll see you next time You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. For more information, episodes and podcast notes, visit amplifiedvoicesshow.
