Juanita and Sincere Follow-up – Don’t Ever Give Up – Season 3 Episode 5

In this episode of Amplified Voices, Amber and Jason follow up with Juanita and Sincere following Sincere’s release from prison. Sincere went to prison as a young man and has grown up behind bars, spending 24 years incarcerated in Virginia. In this episode, we get to hear directly from Sincere about the circumstances of Sincere’s release and his experience with reentry. Sincere discusses how he advocated for himself and others while in prison.  Sincere discusses the unanticipated obstacles that he’s faced now that he’s home, with barriers effectively preventing him from living closer to Juanita and other support systems.

Since our prior podcast last aired, Juanita has continued her advocacy and has done some amazing work with FAMM and other organizations. The video featuring the stories of the founders of Sistas in Prison Reform and Sincere's homecoming can be found here.

  Juanita is parts of a group called The Sistas in Prison Reform   https://sistasinprisonreform.com

You can connect with Juanita on Twitter at @Sinita11_

Prior episode with Juanita: Juanita Belton - Becoming Sincere Behind Bars - Season 2 Episode 4 (buzzsprout.com)

Transcript

AV PODCAST TRANSCRIPT, Juanita and Sincere Follow-up, Season 3, Episode 5, Sept 22, 2022

Announcer: [00:00:00] Support for Amplified Voices comes from the Restorative Action Foundation. Learn more at restorativeactionalliance. org. Everyone has a voice, a story to tell. Some are marginalized and muted. What if there were a way to amplify those stories? To have conversations with real people in real communities. A way to Step into the power of their lived experience.

Announcer: Welcome to Amplified Voices, a podcast, lifting the experiences of people and families impacted by the criminal legal system. Together, we can create positive change for everyone.

Jason: Hello and welcome to Amplified Voices. I'm your host Jason here with my co host Amber. Good morning, Amber. 

Amber: Good morning, Jason. 

Jason: And today we have a very exciting returning guest. With another guest. [00:01:00] Good morning, Juanita. 

Juanita: Good morning, Amber and Jason. 

Jason: And good morning, Sincere. 

Sincere: Good morning, Amber and Jason.

Jason: It's great to see you in person, Sincere. Before we start talking about this follow up episode, we're going to have Juanita give a little recap for anybody who hasn't yet heard the episode where Juanita joined us before. 

Juanita: All right, so since Sarah and I have been friends since we were 15, since Sarah was incarcerated at age 19 for a violent crime, he was sentenced to 45 years on a plea deal in Virginia, and in 2019, where things in Virginia started to move in regards to criminal justice reform, he and I discussed trying to get him out.

Juanita: Whether it be through legislation or a pardon, unfortunately, legislation wasn't on his side. So we started working on a pardon and through that process over two years, I joined a couple of organizations who also helped me. Like them, like Justice [00:02:00] Forward, created a group called System of Prison Reform, continuously, continuously advocated for his release.

Juanita: We were partying, met a couple of legislators, and on January 12th of 2022, I learned that his party was signed, and on January 14th, he was released from prison. And he's home now! 

Jason: Woohoo! So sincere. Yes. How many years were you incarcerated? 24 

Sincere: years. 

Jason: And you were released in 2020. 2022. And how long before you were released did you know you were going to be?

Jason: That day. That day. 

Sincere: Yeah, literally that day. 

Jason: Wow. So you knew that Juanita and others were advocating for you. What was that like for you? And what was your hope level like? What were you feeling? You know, what was going on in your head? 

Sincere: Well, just a bit of context, maybe about a month prior to my release, I got a letter from the governor's office saying [00:03:00] that all pardons, or at least mine, was not going to be reviewed until the incoming governor and administration came in.

Jason: And just for context, we're talking about the state of Virginia. 

Sincere: Yes. 

Jason: We were going from a Democrat governor to a Republican governor, Yunkin, it was a big election. So you're hearing that it's going to be delayed until Yunkin's in office. 

Sincere: Yes. 

Jason: And so your hope level must have dropped at that point.

Sincere: Tremendously, it dropped tremendously. There was a lot of push in December, which is when I got that letter saying that this is it, the incoming governor now and his administration now is going to take over and that's when your petition will be reviewed. So maybe two weeks after I got this letter, I get a call from the counselor saying you have an interview with a pardon and parole inspector.

Sincere: So because I had gotten this letter, this was the furthest from my mind. Had you gone in front of the board before? No, never. Never got an interview. Never got, it's very [00:04:00] rare actually in Virginia for this to happen. 

Amber: Wow. 

Sincere: And this is my second petition. I put in a petition in 2011 that was denied in 2013. So, this was my second go around.

Sincere: The first time, I got nothing, heard nothing. All I got was a letter saying I was denied. 

Jason: Are you talking to other people who are incarcerated, who are putting in petitions as well? And what's the general feeling of the people you're interacting with? 

Sincere: After that election, we were defeated, like completely defeated probation, parole, even individuals that were under the old law were crying because literally they ran on a platform of tough on crime.

Sincere: We're going to shut these doors. Nobody's going anywhere. We're not doing anything. And so far they've held true to their word. So nobody's been released so far under this new system on parole since this administration's been in. Nobody. Of the hundreds of people that have gone up with parole, not one single person has been released.

Amber: So since there, can we rewind a little bit? Like we [00:05:00] saw all of the work that multiple people were doing, you know, Sisters in Prison Reform, FAM, Justice Forward, all of the people who are really kind of pushing for yourself and others. I know that even from inside you were advocating for yourself and others.

Amber: So tell us a little bit about what that looked like because we can only see what's happening outside, but we would love to hear a little bit about how you were involved in trying to push things forward as well. 

Sincere: Well, thanks to the work of those other advocacy groups and Juanita and Sisters in Prison Reform.

Sincere: I was given the opportunity to have a platform to advocate properly and kind of control the narrative from the perspective of those incarcerated, which was a huge responsibility that I did not take lightly. I also included many other individuals to be a part of my advocacy push for their own advocacy, like saying, look, I have this platform, I have a lane.

Sincere: I would like you guys to be a part of that and [00:06:00] I had the opportunity to meet with one of the legislators and I brought six other individuals with me so that she could get a feel for our side of things, the perspective that we are redeemable. We've earned this. This isn't something that we are asking to be given.

Sincere: We're literally going decades fighting for this, making sure that we've not only changed our actions but our mindsets and using our time and our stories to help others. So that's the perspective that was missing from society. 

Jason: How were you treated by the correctional officers as you were advocating for yourself?

Jason: Did they see your advocating as a positive? 

Sincere: Funny thing, security side, yes. Most of the security loved it. What does that mean? Security, the correctional officers themselves and some of the counselors, but administratively they did not like that. And when I say administratively, I mean like the warden assistant warden, those higher in the upper echelon of the department of corrections.

Sincere: They really did not like that at [00:07:00] all. 

Juanita: The funny thing is, the legislator that we were talking about, when he was trying to coordinate with her, for her to come visit him and then the other guys to have a roundtable, she sort of went above the warning, and that was the catalyst for the warden to say, okay, you know, there wasn't a whole lot he could do, which was a great thing, because had she not, They were giving him a hard time about allowing him to have a conversation with them.

Juanita: And she took it upon herself to go and meet with him and this group. Because, you know, the narrative for people convicted of violent crimes is that they're always violent and they can't change. And, you know, we know that's not true. And she accepted the challenge. And the two of them have a really great relationship.

Amber: Yeah, and I think it's really important to have those perspectives when people do have the opportunity to sit with someone and hear their perspective and understand everything that they've gone through everything that they've done. It's so important. And we see, you know, in our [00:08:00] state, we're in Connecticut and in other states that the legislators that do have the opportunity to make a visit and be in proximity with people who are people right, have made mistakes, you know, maybe we made mistakes, we didn't get caught, we weren't as police, there's all kinds of different reasons why people end up incarcerated, as well as violence happening in context, right.

Amber: Violence is a moment in time. It's not a 

Juanita: person. 

Amber: So that is really exciting. Where do you think the discomfort for the administration came from? Cause again, we're talking about people too, that they feel threatened of their livelihood. Did you ever have the opportunity to have a conversation about why that happened?

Sincere: It's the mindset. It's the old, you know, lock them up. It's because the Department of Corrections, especially here in Virginia, deals with this strictly punitive system. Although the philosophy is redemption and rehabilitation and correction, [00:09:00] In theory, all of these things sound good, but in practice, it's strictly a punitive system.

Sincere: Therefore, they put in place individuals to push that specific agenda. So, when you have individuals who are in place that don't feel like anyone who is incarcerated, especially for violent crimes, is deserving of a second chance at life, is redeemable, is worthy of even having their voice heard at all.

Sincere: You were, how old when you first walked in? I was 18 years old when I walked in this room. And how old were you when you walked out? 42. 

Amber: We're talking about going back to that tough on crime era. Crime is up and we need to lock everyone up. And what we did didn't work, right? Here we are with these extremely long sentences that the rest of the world looks at and they're like, what?

Amber: And here we are. So it's important for those stories to be told because we don't want to go back or continue to do that. 

Jason: [00:10:00] Eighteen years old. You're barely an adult. You missed adulthood. I don't want to jump too far ahead, but what was it like leaving and now you're an adult? I mean, you're 42 years old.

Sincere: It's still an adjustment. I still have my days where I really don't believe that I'm out. So I have those moments where it's almost like surreal. Like I can't really believe that I'm able to walk down the street or I can drive a car. I'm going to work like I'm outside. I can go eat where I want to eat, sleep in a real bed.

Sincere: I can interact with people the way I would normally, you know, people are used to interacting with other people. 

Jason: Do you get the sense that when people are talking to you, they don't know? I mean, what's that like for you? 

Sincere: I like seeing the reactions. Once they interact with me and then I reveal that, to see the reaction a lot of times, it kind of gives me hope that all of society doesn't necessarily look at me from that lens of an irredeemable soul.

Sincere: And that's, that's extremely important. [00:11:00] And it's surprising to me how many people are surprised after having a few moments of a conversation with me, should this come up. Or should it come up later on down a week from now after we've interacted a few times? And then they're like what you're what sometimes you think i'm joking But the reactions to me are classic.

Amber: One of the things that I'm really interested to hear about, because what I heard you say was that on paper, we're talking about rehabilitation and we're talking about, this is the way that it's framed, that this is what we're doing when people are incarcerated. But what I tend to hear is that they were able to rehabilitate in spite of the conditions in spite of the system.

Amber: And what we see is some really innovative ways that people who are incarcerated help each other or create their own programs. Or things like that. So I would really love to hear about your experience around that. [00:12:00] 

Sincere: Yes. It's all up to the individual by design, the way the system, at least here in Virginia is structured, is that it's not conducive to anybody that wants to grow or develop or.

Sincere: A lot of the things I did, I had to do on my own in spite of the roadblocks put in place that denied individuals like myself access to education or any sort of developmental assistance. Even when it came down to going to see a counselor for, you know, psychological evaluations and stuff like that. Like they are really like case managers.

Sincere: They don't want to hear about your issues or problems or anything like that. They just want to know, are you going to hurt yourself or are you going to hurt somebody else? If not, then we don't have time for anything else. Programming was a really big thing. That is talked about, but in action, you know, these things do not happen unless we make them happen on an individual level.

Sincere: And what I mean by that is by us taking the horse by the reins and saying, all right, because these programs are [00:13:00] inaccessible to us, we're going to develop our own programs. Write proposals to the department of corrections and not only write these programs and push these proposals through, but facilitate these programs ourself, use our own resources, our own money to educate ourselves on how to facilitate these programs, how to write these proposals, how to speak to the administrators and then force them to say no in writing or yes.

Sincere: And once we did that, we made sure that every one of our programs is successful. Like every one of those individuals that sat and met with this senator, has their own program that is now being used by the Department of Corrections, including myself. So give us an example of a program that you did. Right now in the Virginia Department of Corrections, there is a therapeutic community called the Share Allied Management Therapeutic Community, which was developed by myself and six other individuals.

Sincere: In 2015, what we did was we used the peer education, peer recovery, peer support manuals from Rhode Island. We wrote the Rhode [00:14:00] Island DBHDS and asked them for one of their manuals because Virginia wouldn't give us any, which is crazy. Virginia would not give us their DBHDS peer recovery, peer support specialist manuals for us to just, you know, kind of use as the infrastructure for this mental health substance use disorder therapeutic community.

Sincere: Because at the time, Virginia did not have one of these communities. It didn't exist. We saw a need for it. We all got together, pulled our resources together and said that from the skill sets that we have, we can make something like this happen. Initially, it was called Trauma Informed Care Community, but we changed the name because we wanted to include everyone.

Sincere: And we wrote a proposal, first to the warden at the facility that we were at, and then pushed it forward through the psych department into the Department of Corrections itself, all the way up the chain. And maybe a year later, we got word back that we were going to be the pilot for this program. If we could make it successful, they would adopt this program throughout the state of Virginia, and all the Department of Corrections, the level [00:15:00] threes on up, which they did.

Amber: There was a lot of leadership coming from you guys. And it's like, okay, we see a need and we're trying to push this through. And it seemed like there were a lot of roadblocks in place. Trying to keep you from doing that, but still you guys persisted. 

Jason: To what level do you think race plays a role where you were and in terms of your circumstances, do you think things would have been different if you had a different skin color?

Sincere: Yes. A lot. We see it every single solitary day. You can't explain it away. You just have to call it what it is. They're very blatant with it within the department of corrections, within the justice system itself here. It's clear. There's no mistaking it. For example, the crime in which I was incarcerated for, going all the way back to that, when you look at statistically what individuals were sentenced for, what individuals were even charged with, did not meet, I don't care what law firm you ask, everyone that has done a study that has evaluated my case says the same thing.

Sincere: There's no way that I should have ever even been [00:16:00] charged at that level, looking at the statistics of, there weren't anyone opposite of my skin complexion that was even charged in context with the evidence that was presented. And to have large law firms, one in DC and then the one that eventually was a part of the redemption project, when they investigated this entire case, they were like, bottom line, race played a huge part in this, and it shouldn't have.

Sincere: And then coming into the Department of Corrections, Every single one of the new facilities was built in a rural white area and was run by individuals formerly working in coal mines. 

Amber: Right. 

Sincere: Far removed from anything that, like, when they opened these prisons up, we were the first Black people there. Some of these individuals had actually physically seen in their life, and this is in the 90s.

Juanita: Wow. 

Sincere: These people had not actually ever seen a Black person in person in their entire life. And had grown up to feel like we were the enemy and they hated us. And they filled these [00:17:00] prisons up with young individuals like myself from the inner city. And they treated us exactly how they felt like we were supposed to have been treated at that time, based on their mindset.

Jason: So if we go back, you go all the way through, you've had this experience for all these years. You create programs, you're advocating for yourself and you get this letter that says, you're going to go in front of the board to see if you could be released. Were you optimistic at that point? 

Sincere: Yes. When I got that interview, it was at that moment that I felt like this is it.

Sincere: Because once again, this is my second go around with this. And from 2013 all the way up to 2021, everything about it was different. The entire feel, the landscape, everything was completely different. And I'd worked so hard from that moment. And I got that first denial and they said, all you have to do is just a little bit more work.

Sincere: You hadn't done enough time. I wanted to go home, but I don't feel like I earned it at that point. So I took that moment as a teachable moment and I did everything the department of corrections had to [00:18:00] offer. And then made sure that if you're going to deny me, if I'm not the person that you want, then there isn't anyone in here that you want to release.

Sincere: There's no way. 

Amber: And I just wanted to ask real quick, Juanita, did you know that that was happening and how did you find out about it? 

Juanita: So no, he actually was in quarantine the last two weeks of December. So when the pardon investigator contacted him, he had to contact me to let me know because they needed to get him for his grandmother.

Juanita: And that was the first time I heard about it. You know, Willy Wonka and the golden ticket. That's exactly how this felt like. And I called his family. I was like, somebody needs to pick up the phone. Nobody gets a pardon investigation unless they are seriously looking into your actual pardon. And then it just went quiet for like two weeks.

Juanita: And at that point I had gone to Virginia and done a video about the letter that he received and then also too that he had gotten his pardon application. That [00:19:00] was on a Sunday. And then January 10th of this year, I flew back to Boston, you know, because we hadn't heard anything. Governor Northam at the time, his governance was ending on the 15th of January.

Juanita: That was like the last day. Thank God. So January 10th, I got to speak with him one time between the third week of December until like January. I flew back on Monday and Wednesday, I remember the 12th, before I talked with the Senator, I was like, can I just be human for one second? I just need to like, let everything go and just cry.

Juanita: You know, because we have three days. And my mom talked to me about the book of Ruth and the Bible. And she's like, you know, the final hour, God always comes at the final hour. And an hour later, the Senator called me. She was like, what are you doing right now? And I was like, stand it up. She's like, I think you need to spit it out.

Juanita: The governor literally just signed this party. And I was like, [00:20:00] You gotta be kidding me. So, we didn't know anything. He told me about the party person, then it went dead silent, and then it was like the 12th, got the call, and then they were like, Oh, the 13th, they're like, we need to get him out of here.

Juanita: Because they weren't sure with Governor Youngling coming in, if any funny business would occur, you know, with anyone leaving. 

Sincere: Yeah, now I still don't know any of this is going on because I was still in quarantine right all the way until I left the day I left I was still in quarantine so oh my 

Jason: god 

Sincere: from December all the way through January we were sleeping in a gym we had no telephone no mail anything so I had not contacted or been contacted by anyone for weeks so all of this is going on they're trying to contact me.

Sincere: But not getting anywhere because we're not in an actual pod. We're in the gym. Wow. There's no way for them to get in contact with us. So they're getting roadblocks. So I don't find out any of this is going on until the 13th. The 13th is when finally my attorney, once again, back up at [00:21:00] the top and make somebody come get me so that I can make a phone call in the administrative building.

Sincere: Because there were no phones where we were at. 

Juanita: The other part of it though is they hadn't received the paper to know that he had gotten a pardon. So I found out because the person saw the governor sign it. And so then I called his lawyer that night on the 12th, and I was like, we need to figure this out.

Juanita: And so he called DLC, or he called NARA at the time. It was late. It was like 9 o'clock at this point at night. So nobody knew anything. So then the next morning, the paperwork still hadn't gotten there, or at least the wording or something hadn't gotten the paperwork. 

Amber: So you find out that he gets the hearing from him.

Amber: And he finds out through the lawyer that this is actually happening after all these years, all this advocacy. And so you went and you heard this over the phone, sincere. What was that moment like? Give us a taste of what went through your mind. 

Sincere: [00:22:00] So I get in there and I still don't know what's going on.

Sincere: They just said, it's an emergency. You have to make a call. So now I'm worried that it's a bad emergency. So I get in the office and they still don't know why I have to make a call. They're just like, look, the warden said you have to make a call right now. So I'm like, to who? And they're like, I don't know.

Sincere: You have some family members sick. So now this is banging in my head. And then, you know, she reads the email and was like, Oh, I think it's to a lawyer. He asked me, do I know this name? I'm like, yes. I call him and he's like, dude, what are you doing? He was like, man, we've been trying to get in touch with you for two days.

Sincere: He said, man, have you heard anything about your party? So I was like, no, no, I didn't. So he's like, uh, well, I got some news for you. He was like, are you ready? You're going home, man. And after he said those words, I heard him talking, but I spaced out for a while. And as he's talking, he's like, did you hear me?

Sincere: And you know, I'm like, yes. So the counselor, and then there was another [00:23:00] counselor just happened to walk in the room behind me at the time. So they're excited, but I'm still sitting there. I'm crying. My brain never caught up to the moment. I guess my entire incarceration just kind of. rush through my brain in one moment and like all the stuff that I've been doing, all the sacrifices that other people have made, especially Juanita, all of these things kind of ran through my mind at one time, all the obstacles and it's finally worth it, you know, because up to that point I was like, was all of this worth it?

Sincere: All of the trauma, all of the struggle, all of the adversity. 

Juanita: And then they let him call me after he talked with the lawyer. And I picked up and I was like, first thing I said is we did it. And he's like, no, you did it. I said, no, we did it. I couldn't do what I had to do unless he did what he had 

Amber: to do. 

Juanita: And that whole time, you know, I was advocating for him.

Juanita: I kept telling him, listen, don't be in there acting up. Cause you know, don't make a fool of me. I would tease him. [00:24:00] Right. I was like, we did it. You're coming home. This is it. 

Jason: And so, you ended up having a reunion when he was released. 

Juanita: Yeah, I had just flew back to Boston, and then literally Thursday, everybody, like his lawyer, the senator, me, his counselor, we spent eight hours figuring out where he was going to stay.

Sincere: Yeah, the reason being is because When you're released in the state of Virginia, you can't be released to another state. So my home plan was always Boston. There's a mechanism in the system that says, okay, well, because I have so much time, I'm not going anywhere anyway. So they never corrected that. They never told me that, okay, when you are released, before you go back to this state, you first have to have a home plan in the state of Virginia.

Sincere: So, because I wasn't going on for parole, I had another almost 20 more years to go on my sentence. They didn't care about that. They just wanted to have a home plan in place. 

Jason: Let me ask a question before you go there. So you use the word pardon, but a pardon didn't mean [00:25:00] that your records erased or that you're completely done.

Jason: What does that pardon do in Virginia for you? 

Sincere: In my case, it was a conditional pardon, which means that it has nothing to do with the case itself. It's just based on the merit of who I am right now. And they go back and of course they look at the case, look at the history and say, okay, well, maybe there's some injustice here.

Sincere: So. The only way that this can be fixed is through executive order because of how the Virginia law is set up. From 1995, there's no parole, there's no good time, there was nothing. So I had nothing else, nor the recourse, but executive action. And as a result of what I had done through these years, and, you know, how old I was when I went in, how old I am now, They were like, okay, this is the opportunity to fix something.

Jason: So the conditional pardon, you are released, but you still have to meet certain requirements. You are starting to explain, you have to be released into a Virginia residence. [00:26:00] You have to have a plan in Virginia. What other things? And what is the time that you have to do these things? 

Sincere: Overall, there's three years probation, and you have to adhere to all the guidelines of the state and then any additional guidelines that may come down as a result of you being evaluated once you're released, whether it's substance use, whether it's mental health, all that.

Sincere: So once I was released, they did evaluations on me and determined that I don't need anything doing substance use. I don't need any mental health assistance. So the only thing left to do is not get in trouble and acclimate to society as best you can. You're not really pressured to do, like, you have to do this, you have to do that.

Sincere: I voluntarily took some classes just because. I took the extension of Thinking4Change that is the released version of Thinking4Change while incarcerated. It's like a part two once you've been released. You can take that if you like. So I went ahead and took that just in case later on down the line somebody says, oh, you need to take this.[00:27:00] 

Sincere: I never want anything to come back around. So I made sure that I'm going to do everything possible right here, right now. So there was literally nothing left for them to do with me once I was released, other than say, just don't get in trouble. 

Jason: And you have to check in with somebody supervising you. 

Sincere: Yes.

Jason: How often? 

Sincere: The last time I saw him was March. I don't have to go back again until July. It's based on my needs. So what they try to do is, at least with this probation and parole office, they try to relieve any sort of pressure there is. So because I didn't have any extra stipulations, I'm not a threat to the community.

Sincere: There wasn't much they could do other than saying, don't get in trouble. So there's no real need unless I move or there's some sort of update unless I need to travel like I'm doing now. That's the only time 

Jason: you tried to move to Boston after you came out. What happened? What was the plan? And then what went wrong?

Sincere: Massachusetts is another beast altogether when it comes to probation and parole. When you have what's called an interstate compact, meaning I'm incarcerated in [00:28:00] Virginia, but I'm not from Virginia, from Massachusetts. So those two states have to agree that one, the state that's sending me has to say, okay, we're willing to send him.

Sincere: And two, the state that's receiving me has to be willing to say, we'll receive it. So once that's done, then they have to decide, well, what stipulations are they going to put on me once I'm in that other state? Because I was incarcerated in Virginia, the crime happened in Virginia. They were like, well, you have to adhere to those guidelines.

Sincere: But then when I came to Massachusetts, they say, well, we also have to adhere to the Massachusetts guidelines, which are completely different. They added, I think it was 13 additional restrictions, which included me doing the work that I've been doing for the last 15 years, the advocacy work, any communication or contact with individuals who ever had a record or are currently incarcerated, be it juvenile or adult.

Sincere: No contact. There was a curfew, I had to put an ankle monitor on, and all this for three years. a 10 o'clock curfew for a 42 year old man that's just spent 24 years of his life incarcerated. [00:29:00] I had to come in at night, plug it in and for two hours I can't move while it's plugged in. I can't lay down and go to sleep because if it's disrupted, then it sends a signal back to the unit and then I have to make a call and I have to verify that I am home.

Sincere: I'm not tampering with this. I have to go through this whole questionnaire. 

Jason: No, unless somebody has had to wear a GPS, they can't really appreciate what you're describing. That whole thought of just, well, you just have it on, it's not a big deal. Besides the fact it's always there and present, you're not taking it off.

Jason: The idea of what you're talking about, charging it. I mean, just for people, imagine having to sit there for an hour every day to charge it. You can't plug it in and go to sleep because it could come unplugged. 

Amber: Yes. 

Jason: You have to find an hour when you're awake to sit still. And you've got a lot of stuff that you're working on and trying to get done, whether it's a job where you have family commitments or anything else in a million things that you're trying to do.

Jason: Getting an hour every single day to just plug this thing in is an additional issue, [00:30:00] not to mention the fact that it has all sorts of false signals. 

Sincere: Yes. I experienced that several times. I had to get on the phone, stop what you're doing, make a call and say, look, I'm not doing anything. It keeps going off.

Sincere: I don't know what's going on. Then have to verify through the PO. Crazy. I mean, I 

Jason: would say it's another form of psychological torture. Yes. 

Amber: It's electronic incarceration is what it is. Right. 

Juanita: Yeah. 

Amber: I do want to go back to interstate compact because this happens a lot in our country because we have a lot of different states and people are convicted in states that they, you know, are not from.

Amber: So in the situation that I'm familiar with in my own family, it was a New York conviction, but we always lived in Connecticut. So incarceration in New York and then coming back home resulted in 85 count all of them conditions. Some coming from New York and some coming from Connecticut, most of which came from Connecticut [00:31:00] that are very blanket.

Amber: So it is challenging, especially for lengthy periods of time. Did you stay in Boston or you said, you know what, this is not for me. 

Sincere: Yeah, there was no way. And then they told me I had to, not only did I have to go through all these additional restrictions for no reason based on absolutely nothing. They also said I had to pay for it.

Sincere: Of course. Oh, my goodness. Then I don't need to have to pay for that, but I also have to donate monthly dues to a victim's rights advocacy organization of their choosing. 

Jason: And then the other thing you mentioned was no contact with anybody else with a record, which is just another way of keeping communities separate.

Jason: Keeping you from being in support groups, keeping you from organizing to help make positive changes in your community. All those things. It's just to me, as I look back, and I hear about those types of restrictions, I just don't understand it. If it's, hey, we don't want you [00:32:00] getting into criminal behavior.

Jason: You already have other restrictions that handle that, but don't associate with anybody with a criminal record. Blanket statement is just a way to control you. And I think it has its roots in race going back to what you were talking about earlier. 

Juanita: And people have to remember he went away from math at 18, so no network here at all outside of family, including myself.

Juanita: So coming back and not being able to speak with anybody, because most of the people that he did time with, that he's friends with, they're all out. So we're talking about just being able to speak with your family and myself. Because he hadn't created a network just yet. And it took them eight weeks to say, okay, you can send him back to Boston.

Juanita: It took them like a week or less to say he can go back to Virginia. 

Sincere: It took Massachusetts eight weeks to put together their list of restrictions and say, okay, you can come on now. But it only took them a week to say, all right, you can go back. 

Amber: [00:33:00] What message is that sending? We don't want you here is what it's saying.

Amber: You don't want you here, right? 

Sincere: So yeah, it was beyond words to think that. For almost a quarter of a century, I spent all this time and building relationships with individuals that are incarcerated or formerly incarcerated. And you say that now that I'm out, take all of those resources away. Most of which, even when it comes down to the organization FAM itself, I couldn't have any communication with this organization because of the director, you know, everybody that's involved with FAM are all formerly incarcerated.

Jason: Right. I want to talk about them. But before we do that, I just want to make one comment. And that's this whole idea that in order to get the governor to sign this thing that would release you from incarceration. The bar was so high, the hurdle to demonstrate that you're not a threat to yourself. That you're capable of surviving, that you've really demonstrated that you've done absolutely everything that was asked of you and you've gone above and beyond [00:34:00] that bar was set so high that they should be looking at you and saying, this is a person that we should be.

Jason: Celebrating that to then say to you, these are your restrictions because we can't trust you. We can't let you just live your life. Now you need to be under our constant supervision and watch. That's just stupid. It's inhumane. It defies logic for me. So I just want you to know that there are many people out there that support you, who love you, just from understanding parts of your story.

Jason: Thank you. So 

Amber: you decided that that situation was untenable. And so now you're still in Virginia. Is that right? Yes. Tell us a little bit about what your hopes and dreams and visions for the future include. 

Sincere: For me, it's about the work that I love is still [00:35:00] deeply rooted in advocacy and for others, be it prison reform or mental health substance use disorder.

Sincere: I recently just got certified as a peer recovery specialist and I'm working with a nonprofit organization in Virginia. that specializes in assisting individuals who have mental health disorders or substance use disorders, both youth as well as adults. I'm still doing my prison reform, justice reform advocacy work on the state and federal level, still working with other organizations like BAM that work on the federal level.

Sincere: And I recently started my own business with another individual, formerly incarcerated. We were released the same day, did 27 years, and was pardoned as well. Same day that I was, I think our pardons were signed maybe an hour apart. So Our vision for the business that we've started is to assist individuals coming home, like have direct assistance, be it a job, some sort of housing, everything that we needed when we got out.

Sincere: We want to be able to make [00:36:00] sure that in some form or fashion, be a resource to individuals coming home. And not only that, but also be a resource to our communities. That's ultimately what I've been pursuing and I want to continue. We wish you 

Jason: luck on all of them. You talked a little bit about FAMs. Let's rewind a teeny bit.

Jason: So Juanita, before you came on to our podcast, you had not publicly shared your story. And then what did you do with that? You've just leveraged that and exploded all over social media and other types of work. I mean, it's just been incredible to watch you. 

Juanita: So FAM was doing a lot of leadership workshops.

Juanita: And I will talk about his story and one of the individuals that used to work there, we were talking about Second Look, which is legislation around the U. S. right now. It's for mostly people who have been incarcerated, who were convicted under the age of 18, where they can, after serving about 15 years, get a second look.

Juanita: And so [00:37:00] we started having this conversation about second look in Virginia. And one of the ladies said to me, you know, sincere is someone that I think should have a second look, you know? And so she said, no, we want to do a story. And I said, okay, that's cool. You know, I don't mind talking about it. Make sure it was okay with him.

Juanita: You know, I always want to be sensitive to that, right? And so about seven months went by and I didn't hear anything. And it was cool. I was still advocating for him on Twitter, talking to people. And one day one of the ladies called me, she's like, can we do the story yet? And I said, no. So then she said, well, let's get this on the books.

Juanita: Interviewed me. I mean, that went from a newsletter to, I wrote a blog to doing a video. And then when he was released. I had just done the video when he was released, the producer came with me to the airport. And so the end of that documentary is me and him meeting for the first time in 24 [00:38:00] years again. 

Jason: I remember you called from that day and you were so excited.

Jason: I was so excited to hear you both and know that that was happening. And then to be able to see it afterwards is like, 

Juanita: Yeah. 

Jason: Yeah. I remember that. 

Juanita: Yeah. Yeah. So they gave me a platform, a huge platform, and just were like huge advocates. I mean, we had so many people that were advocating for him. He was through the Redemption Project.

Juanita: The first person through them, um, it's an organization that was helping individuals, right? Parted who had risk factors for complications of COVID during the initial epidemic. And they took him on, right? And they were another group that fought for him. So there were so many people that helped, that pushed, that encouraged, I mean, everything.

Sincere: And sadly, from the Redemption Positive, the hundreds of cases they took, I'm the only person that's successfully been released. 

Amber: Wow. 

Sincere: The only person. 

Amber: You [00:39:00] see the multiple layers and the heavy lift that had to happen. So, Sincere, when you think about that and you think about the people who are still behind the walls, what do you think about or what advice might you have for family members or other people, people who are currently incarcerated, in terms of keeping up their hope for that second look?

Amber: What are your thoughts on that? 

Sincere: Speaking as someone who came from that helpless, hopeless environment and mind state, it's hard to say that to somebody because I know what it was like being in there and people would say, oh, just keep pushing, don't give up. All the cliche kind of, Saying stuff like that doesn't help because you want to defend that.

Sincere: Oh, come on, man. Look at this. Look at what's going on. Look at this administration. Look at this. Look at this. You know, all evidence points to I'm going to die in here. That's the mindset. So what's the point? Which is why I continue every day as much as I possibly can to [00:40:00] position myself, to change the narrative and to be a face for what a second chance looks like and not only for myself, but for those individuals that are still behind those walls.

Sincere: The hundreds of individuals that I personally know that have earned their freedom that do not have this opportunity, that do not have a second chance at life. Guys that went in, like I did, as teenagers, that are now in their 40s. 

Juanita: I would add as a family member, don't do this alone. If you can create a team of people, cause I was brought in by myself for a minute and the amount of stress, the amount of tears, I didn't do anything for myself.

Juanita: My family was sacrificed. I was sacrificed. I would do it all over again, don't get me wrong, but if people have family members, friends, right? Because family doesn't have to be one per se. If you can create a team of people, that is like the best. The person on the inside obviously has to do what they can do, but they're already dealing with a bunch of stuff.

Juanita: [00:41:00] So hopefully I did take the burden off of him to do things and he allowed me, they have to allow 

Amber: me, 

Juanita: but it can't be one person. 

Jason: You know, you said a couple of times he has to do what he's going to do. I think it would be really, really scary. Like you could be doing everything right. And someone can drag you in, whether it's someone else who's incarcerated or one of the officers, they can totally mess you up at any time.

Jason: And just that constant fear of like, what's going to go wrong next. It must be such a relief to be out of that environment where it's like, no, they can't do that to me anymore. But it sounds like you're carrying this feeling like I've left so many people back there. I want to save them all. And I know that's a lot of pressure that you're putting on yourself because you didn't create this system.

Jason: You would break it apart. If you could, I think you got to give yourself a little bit of a break. that, you know, you're doing great stuff, you do the best you can, but it's not your job to save everybody and do it all. 

Juanita: Can you repeat that to him again, please? [00:42:00] 

Amber: I saw Juanita's face. She was like smiling and nodding like, yes.

Juanita: Because he's talked about survivor's remorse, right? And then when we have conversations, he'll say, everybody's mad at 

Amber: me. 

Juanita: Meaning people that are left behind on the inside, they're upset with me because maybe he didn't respond in a time frame. You know, they think he knows this person, that person, that can do everything.

Juanita: And I tell him, I had to get to know all these people to talk to about him. 

Sincere: But it's hard because everything we did was as a unit. and we were all faced with impossible odds. So for one guy to find the code to get out of that, right? Everybody looks at that like, yo, how in the world you have to have the secret?

Sincere: You know, what is the secret? Can you help or just be a voice? But in the moment of leaving, it was like, everybody's excited. You know, other guys were crying and that gave them hope as well because they're like, Oh, [00:43:00] it happened. Sincere. And then it's possible. I was in their shoes, right? But then after that, it's like, oh man, like, you know, you're leaving.

Sincere: And then on the day that I was walking out, I'm getting embraced by people like that I missed and they missed me as well. And then, you know, getting phone calls, emails, things like that on a regular basis from individuals still caught in that impossible, hopeless, helpless situation that's hard to swallow every single day.

Sincere: For me, it's daily. I'm receiving daily doses of a reality check, like, I don't know, a guy sitting telling me about exactly the struggle that they're going through right now. Man, we're back in the gym again. We're all quarantined. Or, you know, an officer just did this. Or, all the things that I know because I just experienced this.

Jason: You formed relationships with people and bonds with people because you lived with them 24 7 for years, right? It's deeper than family. I mean, you have the shared experience [00:44:00] and so it does break your heart, but you know, you're 42 years old. So much of your life was spent incarcerated. You can't build your own prison for yourself.

Jason: You have to know that you can only do what you're capable of doing. But that you're also entitled to some happiness and you're entitled to some freedom, 

Amber: right? I'm really honored that we're able to have this conversation because these are the thoughts that many people have that it's hard to speak out loud.

Amber: Many people who have spent time, you know, incarcerated. And I think that what Juanita said is so important about. Surrounding yourself with a team. I find in my own advocacy work, I have days where I'm like, I don't want to hear about this. I don't want to know about this. It's like a hamster wheel. You're like, I myself, I'm not going to fix this system all by myself.

Amber: Right. And then to take that [00:45:00] time for yourself and yes, I get emails all the time from people in very, very desperate situations and I cannot answer them five seconds after I get them and people get frustrated because they're in a desperate situation. I do get to them and I still have them in my heart and I do what I can do as one person.

Amber: So you have to give yourself that grace. And this episode is so amazing to me because the joy that you're here in person, I really want to focus on that. I'm going to make sure that the video gets in the podcast notes. Because just being able to see that moment, I mean, sincere, tell us what you were feeling.

Sincere: Yes. I mean, literally they picked me up, took me to my lawyer's office. Then, you know, the Senator, she takes me because I said, I want to prison clothes. So she had to take me somewhere to get a change of clothes on our way to the airport to meet Juanita. He didn't know he was coming. [00:46:00] Right. I didn't know it was a surprise.

Amber: So 

Sincere: she's like, are you hungry? Can you get something to eat? She's in a corner kind of like texting, you know? So I'm like, are we leaving? Or, you know, I'm kind of spaced out still. You know, I still feel like it's about to be count time almost. Like that's how my mind is going in that moment. So I was still stuck there.

Sincere: I hadn't been released yet. Like I'm out, but it was just a couple of hours that I had been out. So yeah, we rushed to go find some pants and some sneakers. And then she's like, we're going, but we have to hurry up right now because we have to get somewhere. And then finally, she's like, look, okay, you're going to the airport to meet money.

Sincere: You know? And he's so like, 

Juanita: And they're texting me and I'm like, is he here? And they're like, yeah. And I was like, well, what does he look like? And I left my carry on luggage on the plane. I was so nervous. I had to go back home and put my luggage. And then the producer, she met me to mic me, you know, as I got off the plane, I'm like, my stomach hurts.

Juanita: I [00:47:00] got to go to the bathroom. And I'm like, wait, I'm nervous. And I was like, hold on. And so she's like, you're just going to stand here. It was like this big open space. And it's funny because It was not busy whatsoever and it was just like big open space and she's like just stand here He's gonna come up the elevator and he came and I just took off running and it's funny because obviously they were videoing it So after she said can you guys do that again?

Juanita: And we were like, what are you talking about? And she's like Well, you jumped in his arms your legs were kicking And we didn't look at each other like my leg was like, what are you talking about? Because it was just a natural reaction, right? Funny But it was so good. One thing you said to me is I'm home.

Juanita: I'm home. 

Jason: Amber, you have any closing thoughts? 

Amber: So I'm going to ask the question that I love to ask at the end of almost every podcast. And that is if you had the opportunity to give [00:48:00] one piece of advice, this tends to be a big question. So you could take a minute to think about to someone who was in the situation that you were in.

Amber: What would it be? 

Sincere: Don't ever give up. I don't know if you know who Jimmy Valvano is, but he has that speech that they give every year. He's a coach and passed away from cancer, but you know, every year they show his speech on ESPN, or at least that portion of the speech was don't ever give up, don't give up, don't ever give up.

Sincere: And that's something that kind of resonates. And a lot of us talk about that, listening to that speech every year around the time it was passing. But yes, it's the don't ever give up mentality. I know it's cliche, but it was something that a lot of us in my situation used to talk about that because we felt like, although it was a different subject matter, we felt like it was for us as well.

Sincere: And that's what got us through the not giving up because society gave up on us. decades ago. So the only thing we have left is ourselves. [00:49:00] So for those individuals that are still behind the walls, Still fighting, still maintaining their focus and their drive. You can't give up. Even, you know, when your family gives up on you, when society's already giving up on you.

Sincere: Time is a killer. It will take a lot from you. It'll even take you from you. So do not ever give up. 

Jason: Well, there's our podcast title. 

Juanita: There you go. 

Jason: Don't ever give up. 

Juanita: I want to thank you and Amber for giving me my initial platform to have the conversation about this guy and just the continuous, continuous support, literally every step of the way.

Juanita: It's definitely been a blessing. I always talk about angels among us walking on this earth, you two are two of them. And so thank you for everything. 

Amber: We're so happy to see you in person and it's been a beautiful journey. And I know that in particular, your fellow sisters are still [00:50:00] fighting. And we would love to help them as well and hear some of their stories.

Amber: So we can be looking forward to that. And at the end of the day, you know what we're all trying to do. Is just really create that humanization, that proximity to people and the work that both of you are doing now and have been doing for so long will only push things further for the next people coming along as we all work together to really make this change that is so desperately needed.

Amber: So thank you for everything that you're doing and thank you for coming on the show and we look forward to what comes next. 

Sincere: Thank you. Thank you, Jason. Amber. This was amazing. I appreciate everything that you've done and hopefully we'll have the opportunity to work together again in the future. 

Jason: Perfect.

Jason: Absolutely. So, thank you Juanita, thank you Sincere, and until next time, Amber. 

Amber: We'll see you next [00:51:00] time. 

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